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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
Mistreatment is not an excuse to hold resenment to entire groups in my eyes.
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And it's your privilege not to have to reckon with those thoughts and feelings.
Not all of us are so fortunate. 
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
What I said wasn't meant to push victimhood. I was not claiming men are somehow societal victims just like women aren't and I would laugh at MRAs who would claim so.
The point was that even talking about men's struggles is somehow laughable to some people.
I don't see how police brutality is the hot button issue today except for in the media.
Statistically the number of police brutality victims is nowhere near as high as the number of men affected by suicide for example, especially considering that police brutality is a largely US-centric problem in Western societies while most of the issues I mentioned are spread throughout the Western world.
But I agree, police brutality should also be an important part of the talking points for someone who advocates for men's rights.
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Wooooah. Wait a minute.
Suicide is self-inflicted, so there has to be some social control for that. Government literally can't intervene in an individual's day to day to that extent. Meanwhile, police brutality is perpetrated by an arm of the government. The path to a fix is a lot more clear, and any steps not taken to find a solution are egregious mistakes. Regardless of scale, someone else killing someone else will always take precedent over self-inflicted harm. 
Functionally speaking, most of the issues you mentioned are societal problems. Not limited to white men. The "men's rights" designation of the movement is grossly overreaching. It would make more sense to identify these problems men face along class lines than men's rights. It just doesn't gel.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
The draft, domestic abuse, and disadvantages in court where it pertains to family matters are the only relevant ones where "rights" are concerned. And do indeed need closer examination.
Many of the other things, however, are circumstantial. Like men being in the most dangerous jobs...well men are also in the most anything jobs, period: most high paying, most powerful, most dynamic, etc. What's even the fix for that? Purposely hire more women over guys? I mean...I'm sure the feminists could get behind that... |
Most of the things I mentioned work on a systematic or legal level with the exception of
- men make up most suicide victims
- domestic abuse against men isn't taken seriously on a societal level
- make up most victims of violent crims such as murder and theft
- men make up majority of work related deaths, work in the most dangerous jobs
which are a societal disadvantages.
Also, I don't support purposely hiring women for these jobs it's more of a reminder that while feminists complain about men occupying the majority of best jobs in the world men also occupy most of the worst jobs in the world. I don't support purposely hiring women for these jobs but feminist do want affirmative actions (anohter difficult topic) to give women advantages in the top position and I find it a bit hypocritical to overlook the undesirable jobs which are dominantly male.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
Also, I don't support purposely hiring women for these jobs it's more of a reminder that while feminists complain about men occupying the majority of best jobs in the world men also occupy most of the worst jobs in the world. I don't support purposely hiring women for these jobs but feminist do want affirmative actions (anohter difficult topic) to give women advantages in the top position and I find it a bit hypocritical to overlook the undesirable jobs which are dominantly male. |
I support this sentiment. Especially when so much of the wage gap comes from men's engagement with these types of jobs.
I definitely think there's room to introduce nuance into the feminist movement of today. It seems like a lot of critical points of discussion are overlooked simply to fan the hot rhetoric.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
And it's your privilege not to have to reckon with those thoughts and feelings.
Not all of us are so fortunate.
Wooooah. Wait a minute.
Suicide is self-inflicted, so there has to be some social control for that. Government literally can't intervene in an individual's day to day to that extent. Meanwhile, police brutality is perpetrated by an arm of the government. The path to a fix is a lot more clear, and any steps not taken to find a solution are egregious mistakes. Regardless of scale, someone else killing someone else will always take precedent over self-inflicted harm.
Functionally speaking, most of the issues you mentioned are societal problems. Not limited to white men. The "men's rights" designation of the movement is grossly overreaching. It would make more sense to identify these problems men face along class lines than men's rights. It just doesn't gel. |
I have no problem aknowledging that my opinion on this matter comes from a position of someone who hasn't endured mistreatment and is perhaps very idealistic.
But I am still not willing to give them a pass for it.
The government could definitely help suicide victims in many ways.
Build shelters for men would be a start and support charities and organisations which are focused on helping suicidal men.
Those would be two easy steps. And I agree that police brutality in the US needs fixing ASAP.
But I would also point out that not every black person killed by the police in the US is a person killed for being black. There are undeniably racist instances where people who have not posed a threat whatsoever are killed and those cops should face harsh consequences no doubt
But many of the victims of police brutality, regardless of their skin color, are also accountable for it by shooting at police officers, not following oders and resisting arrest etc.
My dad is a police officer himself and seeing the lack of empathy and resentment for the difficult and dangerous job that is being a cop from so many people is making me quite sad.
Again, this is obviously not meant to excuse police officers who commit police brutality, racially motivated or not.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Over these last two years I have come to see the allure of communism. On paper it seems like just the perfect solution.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
Over these last two years I have come to see the allure of communism. On paper it seems like just the perfect solution.
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Do you consider we all bring the same value in society ?
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
Do you consider we all bring the same value in society ?
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Perhaps not, but do you think we are all born with same advantages in society?
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
most of us aren't as privilaged as others, so we share our experiences here  |
That's true 
Y'all take everything for granted tbh. It's even wose here for female atheists.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Perhaps not, but do you think we are all born with same advantages in society?
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No. But I don't see your point ?
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
Do you consider we all bring the same value in society ?
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I think the values of equality on a wide scale yeah.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
I think the values of equality on a wide scale yeah.
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What would be the incentive to get people to work ? Or for innovation ?
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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The way communism leaves a lot of power on the central government and party will always be worrisome, but I understand why a lot of people were attracted to it.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
No. But I don't see your point ?
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someone born in middle class will have way more opportunities to be of value to society than those who are in need of the help from middle and above class just to survive.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
What would be the incentive to get people to work ? Or for innovation ?
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Do you consider the only reason people should work should be to earn more and more? Don't you think that people should create on their own terms. I respect the creative competition capitalism brought about and bringing everything in full picture I appreciate it more than communism but at the same time I feel certain aspects of communism should be placed.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
someone born in middle class will have way more opportunities to be of value to society than those who are in need of the help from middle and above class just to survive.
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There are too much inequalities in Capitalism as it is, it's not working as well as it could be without the corruption and the connivence, true. But essentially what you're saying is since there are still poor people under Capitalism, let's get under communism so everyone's poor, that way it's "fair".
Succes stories do happen too, you can go from poor to middle class to upper class in a few generations. Communism doesn't allow that obviously.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
Do you consider the only reason people should work should be to earn more and more? Don't you think that people should create on their own terms. I respect the creative competition capitalism brought about and bringing everything in full picture I appreciate it more than communism but at the same time I feel certain aspects of communism should be placed.
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Well yeah, that's easy for some people who have a cool job or who have the chance to work in their passion. But what about those who have to do jobs they don't like, what's their reward, the love of work ?
What's bad about capitalism right now is that the competition is unhealthy, but healthy competition has always been the way, that's how we progress. (imo)
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
There are too much inequalities in Capitalism as it is, it's not working as well as it could be without the corruption and the connivence, true. But essentially what you're saying is since there are still poor people under Capitalism, let's get under communism so everyone's poor, that way it's "fair".
Succes stories do happen too, you can go from poor to middle class to upper class in a few generations. Communism doesn't allow that obviously.
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yay those happens once in a while moments that take generations?
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Btw in the future a lot of work will be done by automated machines rather than humans, what do you think that would mean?
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
Well yeah, that's easy for some people who have a cool job or who have the chance to work in their passion. But what about those who have to do jobs they don't like, what's their reward, the love of work ?
What's bad about capitalism right now is that the competition is unhealthy, but healthy competition has always been the way, that's how we progress. (imo)
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Hasn't it always been this way?
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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communism talk?
But seriously it doesn't work. I know it sounds great in theory. Everyone gets the same of everything, everyone can just pick whatever job they like and live with it and everything is perfect but it doesn't work like that. It doesn't take into account that, despite what narrative is pushed today, humans are not all the same. Some work harder than other. Some have more ambition. It also doesn't account for human traits such as greed. We should work on making the playing field as equal as possible in a capitalist society but communism is a big no-no.
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