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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Actually what I was going for was that feminists and MRAs both have the same agenda in theory which is equality but for some reason can't team up. It's kind of like how if you ask everybody if they want world peace they say yes, yet somehow we are so far from it. I had no intention of sparking this debate on who is right or wrong since I am not aware of activities of any of the groups as of late aside from the hate one of them has for video games and Richard Dawkins.  |
The problem is that feminisms claim to march under the banner of "equality" but their actions don't reflect that. Or do you think most feminists today give eqaul representation to the talking points I mentioned on the last page? Do they mention them regularly at all? In my experience they don't. And there is nothing wrong with focusing solely on women's issues but then they should allow groups that fight for men's issues to do the same.
Yet many feminists attack those people in an instant while quoting the dictionary definition of feminism as if it is reflective of the movement today.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
why do most of us in this thread come from flop homophobic countries  |
I came here cuz nobody else around me understands my fascination with pop culture and pop music. This happens most in non western countries
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
The problem is that feminisms claim to march under the banner of "equality" but their actions don't reflect that. Or do you think most feminists today give eqaul representation to the talking points I mentioned on the last page? Do they mention them regularly at all? In my experience they don't. And there is nothing wrong with focusing solely on women's issues but then they should allow groups that fight for men's issues to do the same.
Yet many feminists attack those people in an instant while quoting the dictionary definition of feminism as if it is reflective of the movement today.
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Yeah but it's same as you said with the MRAs. Again I'm just going by the words of people in this thread, there are bound to be feminists who think otherwise. Christina Hoff for example, I've heard her speaking several times and she is critical of modern feminists and their skewed views towards men, yet she is one of the most influential feminists of her time. I guess it comes down to being moderate, because the extremists really make the entire movements into jokes.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
- harsher prison sentences
- disadvantages in custody battles
- paying child support for children that aren't yours
- disadvantages in divorces
- men make up most suicide victims
- hardly any shelters for men who are victim of domestic violence
- domestic abuse against men isn't taken seriously on a societal level
- make up most victims of violent crims such as murder and theft
- men make up the majority of homeless people
- men make up majority of work related deaths, work in the most dangerous jobs
- the draft
- circumcision still being legal in Western world
These are some points from the top of my head and I don't even follow the MRA community closely.
That's not true for many MRAs and a generalisation. These people definitely exist but again saying "all MRAs" is inaccurate.
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Please acting like that is the foremost agenda. There are MRA groups in my country too. They argue that all sectors of government must be male dominated and argue that marital rape does not exist. To come from a point of view that men are disadvantaged in comparison to women by itself is an illusion, men are more empowered by the society.
In India they were even against the removal of bride price by women like 
If they were to argue dome of the valid points they have without acting like men have the worst in the world while women dominate then people would take them seriously.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Oh and they blame all of men's problem on feminism too.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Yeah but it's same as you said with the MRAs. Again I'm just going by the words of people in this thread, there are bound to be feminists who think otherwise. Christina Hoff for example, I've heard her speaking several times and she is critical of modern feminists and their skewed views towards men, yet she is one of the most influential feminists of her time. I guess it comes down to being moderate, because the extremists really make the entire movements into jokes.
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Yes, there are definitely feminists who do give room for these talking points but in my experience as a whole I don't see it. On top of that most feminists today hate Christina H. Sommers although with her as a representation the movement would gain much more credibility.
Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
Please acting like that is the foremost agenda. There are MRA groups in my country too. They argue that all sectors of government must be male dominated and argue that marital rape does not exist. To come from a point of view that men are disadvantaged in comparison to women by itself is an illusion, men are more empowered by the society.
In India they were even against the removal of bride price by women like
If they were to argue dome of the valid points they have without acting like men have the worst in the world while women dominate then people would take them seriously. |
I don't know what to reply except that yes, there are definitely hateful and delusional sections of MRAs, perhaps even most of them. Idk I haven't taken a poll. The point was that there are MRAs who focus on men's issues in a serious manner and even those are shut down even though they have valid talking points.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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That gender thread... We won! 
I really think the Tinder thing helped draw more people who were tired of the tumblr classifications out. Honestly, it was really tiring trying to get to a place where society is more accepting, but then using labels to produce more boxes
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
Yes, there are definitely feminists who do give room for these talking points but in my experience as a whole I don't see it. On top of that most feminists today hate Christina H. Sommers although with her as a representation the movement would gain much more credibility.
I don't know what to reply except that yes, there are definitely hateful and delusional sections of MRAs, perhaps even most of them. Idk I haven't taken a poll. The point was that there are MRAs who focus on men's issues in a serious manner and even those are shut down even though they have valid talking points.
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Most of them. To be honest this is the first time I hear of these other issues. The only time they come up is when a man has been accused (not even sentenced) of rape or when women get certain posts in the government, basically any advancement or protection of women in society. They act as a white lives matter kind of group, and I simply can't take them seriously when most sections of that group think that way.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
That gender thread... We won!
I really think the Tinder thing helped draw more people who were tired of the tumblr classifications out. Honestly, it was really tiring trying to get to a place where society is more accepting, but then using labels to produce more boxes |
Thanks for leaving me a link. "Don't label us" used to be an LGBT thing cuz we used to recognize how these labels kept hurting our by drawing focus on what was different rather than how much we were alike and trapped people in useless specific groups. And now we have even more super specific groups, it's just such a 180 from before.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Y'all this argument is useless. You both are literally saying that those who think that men are the only ones disadvantaged and have no problems are wrong. No need to keep drawing this out just by focusing on the title of the group.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
Most of them. To be honest this is the first time I hear of these other issues. The only time they come up is when a man has been accused (not even sentenced) of rape or when women get certain posts in the government, basically any advancement or protection of women in society. They act as a white lives matter kind of group, and I simply can't take them seriously when most sections of that group think that way.
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And it's fine if that's your experience with the group and, as I said, perhaps the people you described make up the majority of the movement. Just stay open-minded when you come across someone who uses the MRA label but has valuable and important issues to discuss and don't judge them based on the label.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Thanks for leaving me a link. "Don't label us" used to be an LGBT thing cuz we used to recognize how these labels kept hurting our by drawing focus on what was different rather than how much we were alike and trapped people in useless specific groups. And now we have even more super specific groups, it's just such a 180 from before.
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I always thought liberalism should eventually lead to a society in which labels have become more or less useless when determining someone's chatracter etc.Yet I feel like many liberals today are regressing into a mindset where labels are defining people completely.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Capitalism vs Socialism. Which do y'all like more. I used to think Capitalism was better cuz of individualism but I am starting to slowly lean more towards socialism.
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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Both of them have their pros and their cons.
If a country knows how to run itself economically, then socialism is okay.
But let's look at Venezuela for example, that country is in complete destruction because of socialism.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Captialism with socialist leanings such as healthcare,support for homeless and unemployed people etc. I quite like the system we have here in Germany.
Socialism alone seems to idealistic to me and hasn't exactly worked as well as capitalism anywhere to my knowledge.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
You're right there is definitely no collective equivalency but there is an individual one.
A racist black person is just as terrible as a racist white person.
The effects as a whole are obviously not nearly comparable but on an individual level these people are the same in my eyes.
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True. I agree in the most obvious cases like with the New Black Panthers. But at times, on an individual level, it can be hard to make the distinction of whether it's really racism or just resentment coming from a socially, economically, and politically mistreated individual.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
Extremists on the left have abused the population's sympathy towards people groups for a long time now. That's why there are no academic controls in place in majors such as gender studies which would call them out for using inaccurate and biased statistic and textbooks but out of fear to attack these people they stay quiet. That's why the mere idea of talking about men's struggle results in laughter from members of a political parliament..
Because these people have a very clear vision of what people groups constitute as victims and which don't. The former group has the right to feel victimised by virtually everything ,such as costumes on Halloween, while the latter doesn't get to complain about anything even when they try to discuss serious issues, such as alarming suicide rates among men.
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Wait. This is what I'm talking about though. MRA going the route of victimization when it's really manipulation. Men have rights. Not all of them may have access to the things they need to lead a healthy life, but that's largely not a function of their sex. Especially when they're mostly advocating for white men while black men are being shot and jailed disportionately.
You'd think if you were an MRA group, you'd prioritize the most hot button issue of today, police brutality. But it's obvious why they only speak for white male interests. It's mostly a power play. They're essentially protesting against equalizing the power structure across society.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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@Sunshine, but if you ditch the label of MRA, you can't deny that men get harsher prison sentences and police are more likely to use force on them than women. This goes for both white and black men(With black men also being more likely to face harsher consequences cuz of their race) and the issue of domestic abuse towards men and rape of men is much more trivialized and this goes for men of all races. So I think that even if you disagree with the overall agenda of these groups it would be better to work on some key issues that we all agree with. For example how Bernie and Hilary supporters should have joined forces to stop Trump rather than vote 3rd party or Trump out of spite to Hilary.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
True. I agree in the most obvious cases like with the New Black Panthers. But at times, on an individual level, it can be hard to make the distinction of whether it's really racism or just resentment coming from a socially, economically, and politically mistreated individual.
Wait. This is what I'm talking about though. MRA going to route of victimization when it's really manipulation. Men have rights. Not all of them may have access to the things they need to lead a healthy life, but that's largely not a function of their sex. Especially when they're mostly advocating for white men while black men are being shot and jailed disportionately.
You'd think if you were an MRA group, you'd prioritize the most hot button issue of today, police brutality. But it's obvious why they only speak for white male interests. It's mostly a power play. They're essentially protesting against equalizing the power structure across society.
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Mistreatment is not an excuse to hold resenment to entire groups in my eyes.
Sorry it's just not to me. I hold everyone accountable to be the bigger and smarter person in these situations.
What I said wasn't meant to push victimhood. I was not claiming men are somehow societal victims just like women aren't and I would laugh at MRAs who would claim so.
The point was that even talking about men's struggles is somehow laughable to some people.
I don't see how police brutality is the hot button issue today except for in the media.
Statistically the number of police brutality victims is nowhere near as high as the number of men affected by suicide for example, especially considering that police brutality is a largely US-centric problem in Western societies while most of the issues I mentioned are spread throughout the Western world.
But I agree, police brutality should also be an important part of the talking points for someone who advocates for men's rights.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
why do most of us in this thread come from flop homophobic countries |
most of us aren't as privilaged as others, so we share our experiences here 
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
- harsher prison sentences
- disadvantages in custody battles
- paying child support for children that aren't yours
- disadvantages in divorces
- men make up most suicide victims
- hardly any shelters for men who are victim of domestic violence
- domestic abuse against men isn't taken seriously on a societal level
- make up most victims of violent crims such as murder and theft
- men make up the majority of homeless people
- men make up majority of work related deaths, work in the most dangerous jobs
- the draft
- circumcision still being legal in Western world
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The draft, domestic abuse, and disadvantages in court where it pertains to family matters are the only relevant ones where "rights" are concerned. And do indeed need closer examination.
Many of the other things, however, are circumstantial. Like men being in the most dangerous jobs...well men are also in the most anything jobs, period: most high paying, most powerful, most dynamic, etc. What's even the fix for that? Purposely hire more women over guys? I mean...I'm sure the feminists could get behind that...
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Oh my god the draft  My country still has a mandatory draft for men to serve in the army for 1.5 or 2 years. I was terrified of it and I jumped through a hundred hoops to put it off until finally my body reacted to stress and I developed a disease and was ruled unfit to be in the army. All the girls were literally mocking me saying men must serve in the military. Like shut up skank, how willing are you to give up 2 years of your life in the army and put off starting a career or your adult life.
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