| |
Discussion: U.S. Election 2016
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
There is something that both the far-left and the far-right fail to realize. Most of the country is actually moderate. It's why there movements (the so called progressives and the Tea Party) will never succeed.
I think most of it has to do with white privilege. Moderates seem to win all the time. It has nothing to do with rigged systems or poor candidates. Bill won because he was a moderate. Obama beat Hillary cuz he was more moderate. Hillary beat Bernie because she was more moderate. It is not a coincidence that Hillary got Obama's votes when Bernie got her votes from 8 years prior.
I think both sides need to sit and really think about that because the growing minorities (AA and Hispanics) vote overwhelmingly moderate, and they will be the majority one day. The only thing the far-left has going for them are white millennials, and they won't have enough impact for at least another decade. |
This makes no sense because we can't really say that the country is moderate when 90% of public opinion has no correlation to public policy...
|
|
|
|
ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
I totally understand your concerns, I literally thought/felt the same way just weeks ago.
But I've been very involved in this cycle and I'm more concerned about where our government is headed as a whole not just a single person (Hillary or Trump)
When do we stop thinking of lesser of 2 evils and start thinking about a serious leader that we believe in? I honestly think we need a third party and stop helping the 2 party crooked system continue. It's only actually helping the very very rich (hence the gap between middle class and the richest in this country)
|
I hate to say this, but as for when? Not this year.
The Democratic Party is not helping just the rich and they are not comparable to the Republicans - and I know you'll refuse to believe that, but that's my stance.
Regardless of that, though, this is not the year. You really do need to choose. Over the next four - or much more likely, eight, let's be real - years, this can change. Other parties can choose for once to take their causes seriously and build something significant. This year made a lot of people realize that. But the hard part about third party politics (and I say this as someone who wants to start a Green Party chapter in my city and revive it in my state!) is that you can't realize you need them and then actually make an impact with them in the same year.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
This makes no sense because we can't really say that the country is moderate when 90% of public opinion has no correlation to public policy...
|
Well what I said is what I believe and happen to know, especially because I'm black and I know how they think. Also voting records suggest I'm right.
Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
And honestly, if we want success as movements, as the progressive movement in my case - we need to try to change that.
|
That "we want" talk Andres is saying is the exact reason Judge Garland exists in the first place.
Somewhat liberals, Moderates and conservatives outweigh very liberals. So those SJW for example think the rest of the world agrees with them, and sadly my friends, we don't. America does not appease to one group, so the next time you stomp your feet and pout that you didn't get your way, make sure you understand millions more disagreed with you and you have to accept that.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
The ACA was the absolute best that could have been done at that time (reminder that single payer might be our holy grail but not even all Democrats'), and it allows for expansion.
He has also never supported it.
Nobody but Garland would have had a hot second of consideration. Right now, when they're obstructing a man who for all intents and purposes is perfect, they would have quickly chewed up a progressive nominee and spat him or her out. I don't like it one bit, I hate it - but it's what had to be done.
|
I hear you! But you just further proved my point that Obama is too much of a compromiser and didn't fight hard enough to push the progressive agenda.
Look life long democrats probably LOVE Obama but young liberals/progressives see what he lacked and what he represents and we don't like it
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 25,228
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
[center]There is something that both the far-left and the far-right fail to realize. Most of the country is actually moderate. It's why there movements (the so called progressives and the Tea Party) will never succeed.
|
8 years ago, I would have agreed. But it's changed. Just look at the amount of democrats who identify as liberal or very liberal now.
Even most democrats signed off on Sanders' proposals, they just felt Clinton was the stronger candidate.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Posts: 3,256
|
Instead of being in the race, Bernie should start negotiations with Hillary on certain points that he wants her to change. If she agrees, it would prove that his ideology at least won instead of him.. He should not waste time... Ultimately, the more United that we are as Democrats, the more easy it would be for us to win. Because I still feel RIGHT now trump has a chance to win because Hillary needs Bernie fans to go and vote for her ultimately.
P. S- Hillary should stop aiming to win Texas. That's just not possible. It's the biggest Republican state. Don't waste time on that.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
Well what I said is what I believe and happen to know, especially because I'm black and I know how they think. Also voting records suggest I'm right.
That "we want" talk Andres is saying is the exact reason Judge Garland exists in the first place.
Somewhat liberals, Moderates and conservatives outweigh very liberals. So those SJW for example think the rest of the world agrees with them, and sadly my friends, we don't. America does not appease to one group, so the next time you stomp your feet and pout that you didn't get your way, make sure you understand millions more disagreed with you and you have to accept that.
|
You "knowing black people" < A 20 year study carried out by Princeton. Sorry.
& to touch on what you said to Retro.
The U.S. has ALWAYS moved left, never right. Liberals (or whatever they were called back in the day) have always been on the right side of history and we'll contine to move left and be on the right side of history. Long before the rest of America.
You'll' join us soon enough, history tells me that much 
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Monster Megamind
Instead of being in the race, Bernie should start negotiations with Hillary on certain points that he wants her to change. If she agrees, it would prove that his ideology at least won instead of him.. He should not waste time... Ultimately, the more United that we are as Democrats, the more easy it would be for us to win. Because I still feel RIGHT now trump has a chance to win because Hillary needs Bernie fans to go and vote for her ultimately.
P. S- Hillary should stop aiming to win Texas. That's just not possible. It's the biggest Republican state. Don't waste time on that.
|
For what? She won't carry out any of his ideas, she'll champion them for a few weeks then go back to the dreaded pragmitism that'll end us in another recession and a shi* load more problems with climate change.
And please understand I'm not blaming this on her, I'm blaming it on the system that allows it.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike91
8 years ago, I would have agreed. But it's changed. Just look at the amount of democrats who identify as liberal or very liberal now.
Even most democrats signed off on Sanders' proposals, they just felt Clinton was the stronger candidate.
|
Personal feelings does not equal policies proposals all the time. We need to distinguish that as well when we talk about the political scale.
I, myself, am very liberal in my view of what the world SHOULD be like, but I know that that may not be feasible. For example, I would love free college. If I thought there was a way to have that and work, I would be all on board, but I know it can't which is where my moderate side comes out. I think Hillary is also a Utopian society kind of girl in her heart, but she knows politically it shouldn't be done. And I emphasize shouldn't instead of couldn't.
|
|
|
|
ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
& to touch on what you said to Retro.
The U.S. has ALWAYS moved left, never right. Liberals (or whatever they were called back in the day) have always been on the right side of history and we'll contine to move left and be on the right side of history. Long before the rest of America.
You'll' join us soon enough, history tells me that much |
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I'm one of the most liberal people you will ever meet. 
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Posts: 3,256
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
For what? She won't carry out any of his ideas, she'll champion them for a few weeks then go back to the dreaded pragmitism that'll end us in another recession and a shi* load more problems with climate change.
And please understand I'm not blaming this on her, I'm blaming it on the system that allows it.
|
Then you tell me. Punishing Hillary for it is worth more than getting a Donald Trump presidency?
|
|
|
|
ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Monster Megamind
P. S- Hillary should stop aiming to win Texas. That's just not possible. It's the biggest Republican state. Don't waste time on that.
|
It's the biggest red state but not the reddest. It can be won. From 1875 to 1993 the had at least one Democratic senator at all times.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
Personal feelings does not equal policies proposals all the time. We need to distinguish that as well when we talk about the political scale.
I, myself, am very liberal in my view of what the world SHOULD be like, but I know that that may not be feasible. For example, I would love free college. If I thought there was a way to have that and work, I would be all on board, but I know it can't which is where my moderate side comes out. I think Hillary is also a Utopian society kind of girl in her heart, but she knows politically it shouldn't be done. And I emphasize shouldn't instead of couldn't.
|
Good thing her personally feelings completely align with where history says we'll end up. I just HAD to repeat myself on that sorry haha
After the 2nd WW the government paid for troops to go to college and for every dollar that they spent on those troops to go to college they got $7 back.
The government kept a close look on that spending and those were the results.
How can you tell me it isn't possible lol
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 27,856
|
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Posts: 3,256
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
It's the biggest red state but not the reddest. It can be won. From 1875 to 1993 the had at least one Democratic senator at all times.
|
And what does post 1993 tell you?
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Monster Megamind
Then you tell me. Punishing Hillary for it is worth more than getting a Donald Trump presidency?
|
Um who is punishing Hillary?
If you see it as a punishment then maybe you aren't supporting her for the right reasons.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Posts: 3,256
|
How much ever liberal I may be,i know things can't change dramatically. Change is always gradual...instead of stopping fracking right away, we can draft a plan to end it in the next 5 years.
|
|
|
|
ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Monster Megamind
And what does post 1993 tell you?
|
That there's still a chance, that's what it tells me. We do not give up when a state goes red, we fight for it. We look at the demographics, the people, the ideas coming from that state and we see our chance is still alive and we fight for it.
Turnout is our obstacle and our tool. Turnout is the name of the game. The people control everything if they so choose to exercise that control, and we can get the people we need in Texas.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I'm one of the most liberal people you will ever meet. |
But it seems to me that you aren't seeing the core of the issue in all of government (includes dems and GOP)
The spending on public election leads to corporations getting what they want, not the people getting what they want.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Posts: 3,256
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
Um who is punishing Hillary?
If you see it as a punishment then maybe you aren't supporting her for the right reasons.
|
Then what is Bernie or Bust all about? I support her because she represents views/goals that are actually practical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
