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Discussion: U.S. Election 2016
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
Is that why he passed as many progressive laws as he could during his first term when everything was controlled by democrats? 
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Socially? Yes.
Economically? Not really, but that was because we were in a financial crisis and he IS/ well then WAS a more moderate president, fiscally. This is no secret.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 59,596
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Anyways, done talking to the trolls for tonight. Goodnight, everyone.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
Oh please. Hillary got 9M kids health insurance. Obama saved us from a financial crisis. He gave 20M people health coverage. His presidency is the reason why I can get married and adopt kids as a gay male or why I can serve openly in the military if I chose to do so.
Democrats have fought for people like me since the days of Harry Truman, JFK, and Lyndon B. Johnson.  |
Obama did a great job in many aspects of his presidency but it doesn't change that he was a status quo politician. He only did what was convinient, nothing that really changed America.
Look at our middle class, look at public interest vs public policy, look at Citizens United, look at his picks for Supreme court.
He's not the champion you want to make him out to be.
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Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
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I HATE people who judge another person's ideology or knowledge on issues.
I have studied the records of these people I love which I assume you have as well. So don't come for me and imo, my smartness. I may not like Republicans, but I have never shamed someone for liking a particular candidate. If anything, I politely say why I disagree with their assessments, but move on.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
Basically every Hillary supporter here had something negative to say about Bernie the night of the California primary since he didn't drop out but lol
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And many of us still have a lot of things to say about him - positive and negative - but with all due respect, that should not affect your vote. We can talk, we can argue our side of the story, we can try to convince you, and we can take accountability for our part in the conflicts, but it is neither our job as supporters nor Hillary's to pander.
At this point, you know the consequences of all the possible votes you can make and you definitely know the stakes. Your preferred candidate will soon enthusiastically endorse the woman who defeated him in the second closest primary of the last two primaries without an incumbent and he will lay clear the reasons and the motives. The other icon of the "progressive movement," which I put in quotes because as it stands it's quite exclusionary of people who don't revere Senator Sanders, just endorsed Hillary enthusiastically tonight and is in all likelihood going to be the VP pick for the Democratic party. The current President of the United States - who should be a progressive icon given his passage of the Affordable Care act among everything else - and the current Vice President of the United States - and immensely respected, long-time politician with character and drive - both endorsed Hillary Clinton this past day.
Again with all due respect - it's not about Clinton supporters harshly and sometimes angrily criticizing Bernie or his supporters. While I personally have decided to stop doing anything to insult his supporters and have realized that they are in the very same position I have been in before, I don't think this is about that. While I understand that we Clinton supporters may have been entirely and ridiculously too harsh at times and I apologize for that, I think that you have to look at the whole primary from our perspective and understand how we have felt this whole time - none of us, neither side, is innocent. I also think that you have a very clear choice in front of you, and that's the biggest part of this - as much as I love Hillary Clinton as a politician and role model, and as much as this is now her moment, this election is still very much the following: Trump, or not Trump.
Those are my thoughts and I thought it only appropriate to relay them in full, and to once again apologize if any of Hillary's supporters have gone too far. That was wrong of us, and I hope to do my part acknowledging Senator Sanders' impact on the Democratic Party that he chose to run with, and I hope to extend an olive branch of sorts. However, that is probably the full extent of the apology that the other side will get from anyone - it's bigger now than the fight between Sanders and Clinton.
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Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
Obama did a great job in many aspects of his presidency but it doesn't change that he was a status quo politician. He only did what was convinient, nothing that really changed America.
Look at our middle class, look at public interest vs public policy, look at Citizens United, look at his picks for Supreme court.
He's not the champion you want to make him out to be.
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I am a firm believer of incremental change and realism. For one, it works better and makes it harder for errors to occur. And second, it is a strategic move which both parties play if they want to get their policies in.
Judge Garland was a ploy to show America that Republicans are unwilling to work even with someone who is qualified and that they themselves have said was an outstanding judge. Had Democrats controlled Congress today, yes we would have the most liberal Justice yet.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
Obama did a great job in many aspects of his presidency but it doesn't change that he was a status quo politician. He only did what was convinient, nothing that really changed America.
Look at our middle class, look at public interest vs public policy, look at Citizens United, look at his picks for Supreme court.
He's not the champion you want to make him out to be.
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He passed the ACA and he helped forge an economy that has grown for the entirety of his term when it had declined so greatly in Bush's term. Citizens United was a Supreme Court case over which Obama had no control given that by the time of the decision he had appointed exactly one Justice. It is only now that we have an opportunity to gain a majority there thanks to the unfortunate passing of Justice Scalia; Merrick Garland is not the progressive star that we probably wanted but he was and is the choice with the best chance at confirmation. From policies to executive action he has worked hard and he has made a difference.
President Barack Obama has done a great deal for this country and he is indeed the champion our nation elected.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eros
God I love you! Heart eyes all over the place.
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I try. 
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
And many of us still have a lot of things to say about him - positive and negative - but with all due respect, that should not affect your vote. We can talk, we can argue our side of the story, we can try to convince you, and we can take accountability for our part in the conflicts, but it is neither our job as supporters nor Hillary's to pander.
At this point, you know the consequences of all the possible votes you can make and you definitely know the stakes. Your preferred candidate will soon enthusiastically endorse the woman who defeated him in the second closest primary of the last two primaries without an incumbent and he will lay clear the reasons and the motives. The other icon of the "progressive movement," which I put in quotes because as it stands it's quite exclusionary of people who don't revere Senator Sanders, just endorsed Hillary enthusiastically tonight and is in all likelihood going to be the VP pick for the Democratic party. The current President of the United States - who should be a progressive icon given his passage of the Affordable Care act among everything else - and the current Vice President of the United States - and immensely respected, long-time politician with character and drive - both endorsed Hillary Clinton this past day.
Again with all due respect - it's not about Clinton supporters harshly and sometimes angrily criticizing Bernie or his supporters. While I personally have decided to stop doing anything to insult his supporters and have realized that they are in the very same position I have been in before, I don't think this is about that. While I understand that we Clinton supporters may have been entirely and ridiculously too harsh at times and I apologize for that, I think that you have to look at the whole primary from our perspective and understand how we have felt this whole time - none of us, neither side, is innocent. I also think that you have a very clear choice in front of you, and that's the biggest part of this - as much as I love Hillary Clinton as a politician and role model, and as much as this is now her moment, this election is still very much the following: Trump, or not Trump.
Those are my thoughts and I thought it only appropriate to relay them in full, and to once again apologize if any of Hillary's supporters have gone too far. That was wrong of us, and I hope to do my part acknowledging Senator Sanders' impact on the Democratic Party that he chose to run with, and I hope to extend an olive branch of sorts. However, that is probably the full extent of the apology that the other side will get from anyone - it's bigger now than the fight between Sanders and Clinton.
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It'd be nice if others approached it the way you have and I appreciate your explanation and apology.
But the reality is that the media/ Clinton supporters have compared us to Trump supports, called us stupid, misogynistic, violent and the list goes on. So with the feelings we have about Clinton alone, these other attacks don't help bring us closer. They'll just keep dividing us and I doubt they'll stop anytime soon.
I don't think either side wants to really accept the terms of the opposing side. Imo we're a lot more different than we realize at first glance.
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Member Since: 8/12/2007
Posts: 15,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
& 100% of those people have no idea they're oppressing themselves when voting for politicians like Obama and Clinton  |
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
He passed the ACA and he helped forge an economy that has grown for the entirety of his term when it had declined so greatly in Bush's term. Citizens United was a Supreme Court case over which Obama had no control given that by the time of the decision he had appointed exactly one Justice. It is only now that we have an opportunity to gain a majority there thanks to the unfortunate passing of Justice Scalia; Merrick Garland is not the progressive star that we probably wanted but he was and is the choice with the best chance at confirmation. From policies to executive action he has worked hard and he has made a difference.
President Barack Obama has done a great deal for this country and he is indeed the champion our nation elected.
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The ACA is a weak, expensive and sloppy alternative to what should have been single payer.
Obama has never came out against Citizens United. (Why would he? He benefitted from it.)
And for him to be like "Here *pouty face* I'll give republicans Garland because you guys hate me" is so ****ING weak, ugh don't even get me started on his compromising with republicans bs. Progressives want someone who is going to fight HARD, tooth and nail. Obama has never done that.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalker
Anyways, done talking to the trolls for tonight. Goodnight, everyone.
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difference of opinion = troll. yeah take your ass to bed.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 11,012
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
difference of opinion = troll. yeah take your ass to bed.
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Do you need to be so abrasive?
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
I am a firm believer of incremental change and realism. For one, it works better and makes it harder for errors to occur. And second, it is a strategic move which both parties play if they want to get their policies in.
Judge Garland was a ploy to show America that Republicans are unwilling to work even with someone who is qualified and that they themselves have said was an outstanding judge. Had Democrats controlled Congress today, yes we would have the most liberal Justice yet.
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Incrementalism doesn't solve the major issues in America today, sorry.
Climate change and a quickly failing economy needs FAST AND BOLD change, that's just what it is
Instead of showing America that republicans in office are stupid why not show America that he REALLY cares about progressives and nominate a crazy liberal? Hm I'm not buying it!
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
It'd be nice if others approached it the way you have and I appreciate your explanation and apology.
But the reality is that the media/ Clinton supporters have compared us to Trump supports, called us stupid, misogynistic, violent and the list goes on. So with the feelings we have about Clinton alone, these other attacks don't help bring us closer. They'll just keep dividing us and I doubt they'll stop anytime soon.
I don't think either side wants to really accept the terms of the opposing side. Imo we're a lot more different than we realize at first glance.
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And this is why you need to rise above.
Bernie Sanders supporters were a more impassioned, excited, empowered group than we've seen in a very long time in politics. They are indeed comprised a group with some terrible people here and there but for each of those, there are millions of people who have approached the situation with intellect and emotion.
Rise above these personal disagreements and really, truly analyze the situation around you. I could sit here for hours now, days even expounding upon the merits and accomplishments of Hillary Clinton as a candidate but we both know that neither you nor I would be entirely satisfied with the opposing Democratic candidate.
Some time ago I realized that if Hillary were to be indicted or were she to lose, I would commit at some point to voting for Bernie Sanders. I might not see him as perfect but he shares my values and goals and his idealism inspires people who can't see through the pragmatism of Hillary's approach. What I could not do is vote for Jill Stein, a politically uncorrupted leader for an optimistic, driven grassroots party that deserves better. I cannot do that as much as I would love to in a hypothetical Bernie-won world because I can't let Trump win. I just can't.
This election sucks. This election is dark, and scary, and concerning for the very roots of democracy because of the deep divisions of all the different sides, but we know the enemy. We have the bad guy for this story, to keep in our minds, and I sincerely hope that whatever happens before the Convention, at the Convention, and before that day in November, we all end up on the same side of this. We need to.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bey Admired
Do you need to be so abrasive?
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If you seriously seriously consider that abrasive and I get warned for that, then I will ask for a thread ban. You're unbelievable.
I'm called abrasive for replying to some senseless comment about me being a troll, HILAROUS.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andres
The ACA is a weak, expensive and sloppy alternative to what should have been single payer.
Obama has never came out against Citizens United. (Why would he? He benefitted from it.)
And for him to be like "Here *pouty face* I'll give republicans Garland because you guys hate me" is so ****ING weak, ugh don't even get me started on his compromising with republicans bs. Progressives want someone who is going to fight HARD, tooth and nail. Obama has never done that.
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The ACA was the absolute best that could have been done at that time (reminder that single payer might be our holy grail but not even all Democrats'), and it allows for expansion.
He has also never supported it.
Nobody but Garland would have had a hot second of consideration. Right now, when they're obstructing a man who for all intents and purposes is perfect, they would have quickly chewed up a progressive nominee and spat him or her out. I don't like it one bit, I hate it - but it's what had to be done.
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Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
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There is something that both the far-left and the far-right fail to realize. Most of the country is actually moderate. It's why there movements (the so called progressives and the Tea Party) will never succeed.
I think most of it has to do with white privilege. Moderates seem to win all the time. It has nothing to do with rigged systems or poor candidates. Bill won because he was a moderate. Obama beat Hillary cuz he was more moderate. Hillary beat Bernie because she was more moderate. It is not a coincidence that Hillary got Obama's votes when Bernie got her votes from 8 years prior.
I think both sides need to sit and really think about that because the growing minorities (AA and Hispanics) vote overwhelmingly moderate, and they will be the majority one day. The only thing the far-left has going for them are white millennials, and they won't have enough impact for at least another decade.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 3,730
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
And this is why you need to rise above.
Bernie Sanders supporters were a more impassioned, excited, empowered group than we've seen in a very long time in politics. They are indeed comprised a group with some terrible people here and there but for each of those, there are millions of people who have approached the situation with intellect and emotion.
Rise above these personal disagreements and really, truly analyze the situation around you. I could sit here for hours now, days even expounding upon the merits and accomplishments of Hillary Clinton as a candidate but we both know that neither you nor I would be entirely satisfied with the opposing Democratic candidate.
Some time ago I realized that if Hillary were to be indicted or were she to lose, I would commit at some point to voting for Bernie Sanders. I might not see him as perfect but he shares my values and goals and his idealism inspires people who can't see through the pragmatism of Hillary's approach. What I could not do is vote for Jill Stein, a politically uncorrupted leader for an optimistic, driven grassroots party that deserves better. I cannot do that as much as I would love to in a hypothetical Bernie-won world because I can't let Trump win. I just can't.
This election sucks. This election is dark, and scary, and concerning for the very roots of democracy because of the deep divisions of all the different sides, but we know the enemy. We have the bad guy for this story, to keep in our minds, and I sincerely hope that whatever happens before the Convention, at the Convention, and before that day in November, we all end up on the same side of this. We need to.
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I totally understand your concerns, I literally thought/felt the same way just weeks ago.
But I've been very involved in this cycle and I'm more concerned about where our government is headed as a whole not just a single person (Hillary or Trump)
When do we stop thinking of lesser of 2 evils and start thinking about a serious leader that we believe in? I honestly think we need a third party and stop helping the 2 party crooked system continue. It's only actually helping the very very rich (hence the gap between middle class and the richest in this country)
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
There is something that both the far-left and the far-right fail to realize. Most of the country is actually moderate. It's why there movements (the so called progressives and the Tea Party) will never succeed.
I think most of it has to do with white privilege. Moderates seem to win all the time. It has nothing to do with rigged systems or poor candidates. I think both sides need to sit and really think about that. |
And honestly, if we want success as movements, as the progressive movement in my case - we need to try to change that.
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