When you put it that way it seems pretty ambiguous. But I wouldn't complain about that here... We aren't so much arguing about the theme of the album as we are the depth of the album and the possibilities of what Gaga could be doing this era.
Exactly! Thank you! This thread wasn't supposed to be about just where the era will go, it was about the fact that what we know so far is not some radically new, drastically more pretentious version of Gaga, and is in fact, from the title only, a return to the Gaga of The Fame era.
Who gets to define the line that determines over-analyzing? Saying someone is "over-analyzing" is a really lazy way of engaging with what they've said. In fact, you don't have to engage at all, you simply say they're over-analyzing and they're automatically delusional and you're automatically rational and measured.
Sammi's saying (and I agree), that kind of response isn't constructive whatso****ingever. If you disagree with what I said, tell me where I went wrong and how you know. Don't just say I'm over-analyzing. I won't agree, because you've given me no evidence to the contrary, whereas I've provided a lot of evidence in my original post that ARTPOP as a title is not a drastically new, drastically more pretentious direction for her.
Because most of the things you guys are saying are delusions that you guys have created, which is fine and fun, but then you guys actually believe them and are disappointed when it doesn't become reality.
1. Gaga is not some genius that has everything crafted from the beginning of her career. She has herself admitted the many mistakes she's made, the way her label controlled the era and chose the singles, etc. So stop that.
2. Yes ARTPOP is not a new concept, she dabbled about it during The Fame "Pop music will never be low brow", but this is the same girl that during BTW tried to make it seem like pop music was complete and utter **** and she didn't want to be affiliated with it. When that didnt go so good (BTW single chart run and general popularity decline) she takes off the horns, huge moles, and teal wigs and exchanges them for cute look with colorful pink clothes, "im high all day" image, and rubbing shoulders with the notorious party girl Lindsay.
Al in all, she's just trying to be popular again while still trying to be artsy, that's it.
It's not some deep calibrated conspiracy contrived since 2008.
Check this out. One of her very first televised performances.
POP MUSIC WILL NEVER BE LOW BROW. [RED] [BLUE] [GREEN] [PINK] GA GA.
From the very beginning she was positioning pop music as high art. And then flashing distinct colors. And then it starts with her in blacklight so her lips and other parts of her clothes glow in unnatural colors.
She transformed herself into a human
right from the very beginning.
I never really liked The Fame era, but it's rapidly moving up the scale for me! How she was this insignificant girl with a plan... A plan to open the GPs eyes and see that Pop Music can be about more than just catchy tunes.
Her intelligence and cunning is incredible and makes her a VERY impressive person.
You don't think she was serious at the start? Read the OP closer, then. I provided two very early tour videos that are super "pretentious" and Warhol-inspired and very, very serious, as well as an interview in which she describes Just Dance as an artistic statement. She was always, ALWAYS serious and "pretentious" about what she was doing.
The only difference is that now she can back it up, but suddenly you all are seeing it as some new thing that proves she's changed drastically.
Trust me, I know shes always had the "weird" in her, but her music was never serious in the way that it is now.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I miss the Gaga before when the songs weren't all metaphors and lyrics that don't make sense to the average person on every single song.
Exactly! Thank you! This thread wasn't supposed to be about just where the era will go, it was about the fact that what we know so faris not some radically new, drastically more pretentious version of Gaga, and is in fact, from the title only, a return to the Gaga of The Fame era.
That's what I'm saying though.
She said it's the music she's always made, so it seems obvious that she'll just keep on making it with this album.
The title is pretentious in a way but well, where's the news here? The Fame Monster was one hell of a pretentious title and it lived up to its expectations, so whatever.
My point is that the title doesn't point to a theme in such an obvious way like "The Fame", "The Fame Monster" or "Born This Way" did. And it's true, isn't it?
]Because most of the things you guys are saying are delusions that you guys have created[/B], which is fine and fun, but then you guys actually believe them and are disappointed when it doesn't become reality.
1. Gaga is not some genius that has everything crafted from the beginning of her career. She has herself admitted the many mistakes she's made, the way her label controlled the era and chose the singles, etc. So stop that.
2. Yes ARTPOP is not a new concept, she dabbled about it during The Fame "Pop music will never be low brow", but this is the same girl that during BTW tried to make it seem like pop music was complete and utter **** and she didn't want to be affiliated with it. When that didnt go so good (BTW single chart run and general popularity decline) she takes off the horns, huge moles, and teal wigs and exchanges them for cute look with colorful pink clothes, "im high all day" image, and rubbing shoulders with the notorious party girl Lindsay.
Al in all, she's just trying to be popular again while still trying to be artsy, that's it.
It's not some deep calibrated conspiracy contrived since 2008.
Again, you are not in any position to be saying that unless you provide evidence that I'm wrong.
I did not say 1.
and 2., claiming that Gaga acted like pop music is **** is, frankly, bull****. She's always been SHAMELESSLY a pop artist. Just because she brought some rock influence into her pop doesn't mean she suddenly went around acting like she was too good for pop. If you insist that she acted too good for pop music, back it up.
"She's just trying to be popular again while still trying to be artsy" is an absurd statement. YOU DON'T KNOW what's happening in her head. And even if that is what's going on, was anything I said in the OP wrong? I'm waiting...
Because most of the things you guys are saying are delusions that you guys have created, which is fine and fun, but then you guys actually believe them and are disappointed when it doesn't become reality.
1. Gaga is not some genius that has everything crafted from the beginning of her career. She has herself admitted the many mistakes she's made, the way her label controlled the era and chose the singles, etc. So stop that.
2. Yes ARTPOP is not a new concept, she dabbled about it during The Fame "Pop music will never be low brow", but this is the same girl that during BTW tried to make it seem like pop music was complete and utter **** and she didn't want to be affiliated with it. When that didnt go so good (BTW single chart run and general popularity decline) she takes off the horns, huge moles, and teal wigs and exchanges them for cute look with colorful pink clothes, "im high all day" image, and rubbing shoulders with the notorious party girl Lindsay.
Al in all, she's just trying to be popular again while still trying to be artsy, that's it.
It's not some deep calibrated conspiracy contrived since 2008.
Trust me, I know shes always had the "weird" in her, but her music was never serious in the way that it is now.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I miss the Gaga before when the songs weren't all metaphors and lyrics that don't make sense to the average person on every single song.
You know she went around to radio shows and TV appearances spouting off about how Poker Face was a deep metaphor for hiding your sexuality and being ashamed for fantasizing about a woman when she was having sex with a man, right? And LoveGame sees her facing off between two men, one representing Fame and one representing Love, choosing between career and personal life, for a song that to most people is about humping a dick?
Just because you didn't notice all the metaphors before, doesn't mean they weren't there.
But why is it always the same people constantly dragging her down. Who gives a **** if she's pretentious? You were here for her when she was her most pretentious. When her music didn't mean **** to the people who listened to it. It was just about dancing in clubs, and riding disco sticks. But yet she's always remained the same. Talking highly of her music and hyping it to heaven's ceiling. Just drop it, and Jonny, Gaga has never detested pop. She just doesn't like the stigmas attached to pop artist.
"Born This Way" was a great and original title IMO.
I agree it's all in the execution.
But this thread wasn't about the execution, it's about reactions to the title.
This "so pretentious! She's just name-dropping Warhol! It means nothing!" reaction would be analogous to people, after the VMAs 2010, saying, "Born This Way? Ugh. It's such a shame she's pandering to the gay community without actually incorporating any themes of self-acceptance in the lyrics."
The point is you just don't know at this point, so there's no use with all the hand-wringing about why she's suddenly (again... sigh) gone off the deep end into ego-land.
Going off of what Shape said, I'd love it if Gaga really did deconstruct pop; similarly to what Goddard and Whedon did with the Horror genre in 'Cabin in the Woods.'
A bit ironic too that one of Gaga's best film references, 'Rear Window,' is one of the most famous film deconstructions ever.
When I said that I do not believe that she was serious from the start and that she was just a run of the mill popstar you told me to re-read the OP.
Jonny is responding to the people who claimed this ARTPOP era was planned from the time of Just Dance. I didn't say that; I said that the themes around the time of Just Dance, and the way she talked about herself, aren't any different than the themes and way she talks about herself now.
You know she went around to radio shows and TV appearances spouting off about how Poker Face was a deep metaphor for hiding your sexuality and being ashamed for fantasizing about a woman when she was having sex with a man, right? And LoveGame sees her facing off between two men, one representing Fame and one representing Love, choosing between career and personal life, for a song that to most people is about humping a dick?
Just because you didn't notice all the metaphors before, doesn't mean they weren't there.
The PF metaphor isn't hard to grasp onto at all. But death at that LG thing. Was that after TF or during? Because I'm highly inclined to believe that she made up all of that **** after the fact to save face and to look like an "unoriginal popstar" even though her debut was everything but original.
Al in all, she's just trying to be popular again while still trying to be artsy, that's it.
It's not some deep calibrated conspiracy contrived since 2008.
i read the 14 pages this was the only thing that made sense
Jonny is responding to the people who claimed this ARTPOP era was planned from the time of Just Dance. I didn't say that; I said that the themes around the time of Just Dance, and the way she talked about herself, aren't any different than the themes and way she talks about herself now.
I don't think it's completely planned so to say. But I do think that she's aware of what's going on in her career more so than we claim to know. For instance, she knew that people wanted more TFM from her when she released BTW (she said so on Howard Stern) She's in tune with her fans, she also mentioned David Bowie's career and analyzed how his fans reacted after his change. I just feel that she's taking us on a ride
The PF metaphor isn't hard to grasp onto at all. But death at that LG thing. Was that after TF or during? Because I'm highly inclined to believe that she made up all of that **** after the fact to save face and to look like an "unoriginal popstar" even though her debut was everything but original.
What are you even saying?
Watch the LoveGame music video again. She's trapped between Love and Fame.
Why are you claiming she made up parts of the LoveGame video after-the-fact to look unoriginal even though she wasn't original? You're not making ANY sense.
The PF metaphor isn't hard to grasp onto at all. But death at that LG thing. Was that after TF or during? Because I'm highly inclined to believe that she made up all of that **** after the fact to save face and to look like an "unoriginal popstar" even though her debut was everything but original.
Dude... Gaga's ****ing smart. If you really analyze her music, you can find some brilliance.
I think people complain about over-analyzing because their own faves don't create music that can be analyzed; therefore, anything to them is overkill.
