[Jaxsin]

Originally posted by IMPACTNET.

Beyoncé is not more culturally important than Mariah or Whitney. Are you not aware of their contributions? Especially Whitney's and the barriers she broke down for black women like Beyoncé to succeed?



What are you basing this off of? Metacritic? A system that didn't come into existence until 1999? By that point, both Mariah and Whitney were well past their primes, artistically and commercially. All of Beyoncé's solo albums have been rated by Metacritic, whereas only Mariah and Whitney's 2000's have been critiqued. Whitney's debut album is very much so acclaimed, which is why it is included in Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums list. Mariah's Daydream album is also acclaimed. Also, I Will Always Love You and is bigger than any Beyoncé song and is considered a vocal standard, along with her cover of the National Anthem.




Just because Beyoncé has not had a scandal, doesn't mean she's more respected. MJ has had the most scandals of any artist in pop history, and guess what? He is still the most respected pop artist ever and will always be the biggest. Despite her troubles, Whitney is still very much so respected. She is considered The Voice for a reason. In a weird way, her scandals have only contributed to her legend and has given her a similar narrative as pop culture figures of the past who've had similar downfalls. Every famous person will be ridiculed at some point in their careers, including Beyoncé, who has had her fair share of it rather you see it or not.


But didn't you just say they don't have a song as acclaimed as Crazy in Love? I'm confused.


In 30-40 years, Beyoncé will most definitely be considered a legend. And Mariah and Whitney will be considered bigger legends.


But you just said in 30-40 years, she will be at their levels? I'm still confused.

Originally posted by Chimier

Well, yes. Diana broke down barriers in a much more constricted time. She was the spearhead of the biggest female group in the world, the only group who rivaled the Beatles. And she was a black woman. She managed to carve out Hollywood success. Furthermore, Whitney's breaking down of barriers were simply continuations of what Diana and others had done. However, in the case of Beyonce, she's the only one benefiting from her movements, while also benefiting from the things others before her have done.

What makes Beyonce special is that in her time, she is the only one. Whitney and Diana weren't the only ones in their generations, but the standouts.
That definitely plays into a lot of the "Beyonce>>>>Whitney/Mariah" comments.



But exactly how and what is Beyonce "meeting"? She's at the top of the world, the biggest star on the planet and yes, very influential in this generation. That doesn't suddenly translate to "meeting Whitney and Mariah's legacies".

It's not about "getting so huge". Aretha Franklin was NEVER as huge as Diana Ross, yet her legacy is just as great. A lot of you are conflating Beyonce's star power with legacy and cultural significance. Does star power come into play? Sure, but at the lowest point.

nnn what kinda tag team all the way down to the avis

[IMPACTNET.]

Originally posted by swissman

So do you think that Whitney never surpassed Diana Ross with this same logic?

Whitney's success was made partially by the barriers Diana Ross broke down for black women. She truly had a multi-faceted career, having success in music, film and television. Whitney followed this template and took it to greater heights. Diana crossed over, but Whitney crossed over in an even bigger way. Beyoncé has not reached the heights Whitney did. Simple as that.

Originally posted by swissman

By 1999 Mariah was 9 years into her career.
Whitney was 14 years into her career.

At 9 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing B'Day.
At 14 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing 4.

What does this have to do with the fact that none of Whitney or Mariah's albums prior to 1999 are rated by Metacritic? And like Whitney and Mariah, Beyoncé was also passed her commercial peak 9 and 14 years into her career. Artistically, she did grow so I'll give her that.

Originally posted by swissman

And again, this shouldn’t be about surpassing, this should be about meeting their legacies. When you get so huge it’s hard to really compare, especially when artists are so different and do such different things with their careers.

It is about surpassing considering that's the thread discussion. And Beyoncé has not met their legacies.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

[CENTER]


What exactly were Whitney's contributions? There were plenty of black women before her bringing big voices and gospel to pop (Aretha, most significantly), enjoying massive commercial success (Diana, Tina), and that were far more subversive/challenging/innovative artists (Bessie, Etta, Nina, Grace, Donna)...

None of those artists had the crossover success Whitney had. Whitney had unprecedented success as a black woman. Whitney did not exactly follow Aretha's blueprint. She was influenced, but she used the template and created her own, similar to Beyoncé. Whitney brought her own style and approached singing in a way that was different from an Aretha. Aretha was much more gospel than Whitney and Whitney combined the two genres in a seamless way Aretha never did. After Whitney debuted, you had artists trying to sound like Whitney and producers writing songs in the similar style of Whitney's for other artists. Whitney's crossover success and impact on MTV paved the way for other black females to have heavy rotation on MTV. No Whitney was not the first to combine gospel and pop music, but she was the first to have the level of success she did with that style. Not only that, but she was the first female with a big voice who actually had a multi-faceted career. Every arena of entertainment she touched was successful. What exactly did Beyoncé do first that had never been seen before?

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

[CENTER]
I understand that Whitney was the biggest of them all, hence the "barrier-breaking", but when her music was so painfully beige and essentially apolitical - and her image so pampered and conventional - not to mention the fact that she was entirely manufactured... what else is there to value?

Her voice and that was more than enough because no one else could do it like her.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

[CENTER]
And why does the "barrier-breaking" preclude Beyoncé from consideration as being more culturally significant? Barbey d'Aurevilly paved the way for Proust...

Because Beyoncé didn't break any barriers for black woman, that's why.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

I wouldn't play up this part of Whitney's legacy. Not sure if "farting on a reality TV show with husband Bobby Brown" is being romanticised á la Kurt Cobain or something... more along the lines of Rick James...

Whitney's downfall is a part of her legacy. It isn't about romanticizing it, it's about highlighting the fact that most legendary artists have had scandals in their careers. It doesn't mean they still aren't respected for their contributions.

[Chimier]

Originally posted by swissman

If Beyoncé's huge talent for performing is not part of her legacy, if it is not part of what will be carried on to next generations then neither is Whitney's success in three major formats of entertainment, that too would be merely aspirational.

That is her TALENT, not her legacy.
And I clearly said that Whitney's success in three formats of entertainment is part of her SIGNIFICANCE. Her legacy is her influence on singing and music. The overlap in both lies in her breaking down barriers.

Whitney's legacy is her singing influence via her pop-gospel singing style, her musical influence via her ballads and uptempos. Her significance lies in how she shifted the musical paradigm with her music, her success as a black female artist in three major formats of entertainment, and how she set precedence for black artists, female vocalists, pop superstars and R&B singers. The overlap in the legacy and significance lies in her setting precedence and breaking down barriers.

Originally posted by swissman

The goal part was just the introduction to how it's part of her legacy. Just as MJ's legacy is his amazing performing abilities too, so are Beyoncé's. You can see her style in everyone from Fifth Harmony to Rihanna to Ariana Grande to Jennifer Lopez.

MJ's influence on music is his legacy, not his talent.

Originally posted by swissman

If a legacy is something you give to people following behind you, then how is Beyoncé redefining feminist in the mainstream not part of her legacy?

There are actual interviews where Gaga and Taylor (to name just a few big examples) says they are not feminists. And now they would never say that. The same goes for so many people around the world.

Because making people comfortable enough to call themselves feminists is really nice, but that's all it is: nice. That's not a legacy. She got the conversation on feminism going again, but she hasn't added anything significant to it. You're acting like she introduced the world to a new kind of feminism. I have no doubt that she has empowered scores upon scores of individuals, especially young girls and women, but that's down to her being a music artist. So again, it makes her significant, because she's been able to shape her art around feminism and find not only find success, but also get notice for her feminism.

[swissman]

Originally posted by IMPACTNET.

Whitney's success was made partially by the barriers Diana Ross broke down for black women. She truly had a multi-faceted career, having success in music, film and television. Whitney followed this template and took it to greater heights. Diana crossed over, but Whitney crossed over in an even bigger way. Beyoncé has not reached the heights Whitney did. Simple as that.

Partially because of the barriers of Diana Ross? She owed a HUGE amount of those barriers being broken to Diana Ross.

The Supremes were the first black crossover stars.
Their image as elegant, soft, graceful black women was entirely different than what was the standard.
Their embrace of fashion was also new.
It was historic in that now white covers of black musicians were not as successful as the black original.
Diana as an actress paved the way for Whitney. She was even Oscar-nominated.

There is a clear line in legacy, but each is picking up where the other left off, improving it, adding to it, expanding on it. Whitney did big things too, and Beyoncé as a singer, actress, brand ambassador expanded it by also being the keeper of her own brand in a way that Whitney had not, and in a way that will further inspired young black women in years to come.

Originally posted by IMPACTNET.

What does this have to do with the fact that none of Whitney or Mariah's albums prior to 1999 are rated by Metacritic? And like Whitney and Mariah, Beyoncé was also passed her commercial peak 9 and 14 years into her career. Artistically, she did grow so I'll give her that.

It is about surpassing considering that's the thread discussion. And Beyoncé has not met their legacies.

The point that was made was that they were past their critical peaks when meteoritic started (9 or 14 years into their career). And in Beyoncé's career, she has been continually growing as an artist and is currently about to be in her 20th year in the business and has still managed to make a work of pure artistry.

I know this is about surpassing. I don't think Beyoncé has done that. I've said that. I do think that she has met their legacies. It's not comparable to rate them in the same ways for all aspects since its not the 1990s anymore, but Beyoncé's legacy, impact and place in culture is certainly comparable.

[swissman]

Originally posted by Chimier

MJ's influence on music is his legacy, not his talent.

His talent is part of his legacy as his talent manifests itself in his style and that is passed down. His dancing abilities, his performing qualities are part of his legacies and you can see and hear it in the performance styles of: Usher, Justin Timberlake, Chris Brown, Bruno Mars, Ne-Yo etc. etc. etc.

[Mr. Wonder]

Originally posted by Trent W

Beyonce is like 5 times more acclaimed and respected than both of them.

No she is. Metacritic scores and album reviews do not illustrate examples of "acclaim". Stop using words of which you don't know the definition. Same with "respected", you don't even know what that means, and are clearly misapplying the definition within the context of the discussion.

Originally posted by Trent W

Beyonce is 10x more powerful as a brand than them.

The charts don't say that. Her sales don't say that. The only aspect that's expanding is her tour gross, and industry that has become more of a commercial juggernaut than it was 10 and 20 years ago. People are talking, but they aren't buying.

Originally posted by Trent W

She also has more cultural impact.

Than who? Whitney and Mariah? Two women whose art has been ingrained in popular culture for going on 4 and 3 decades respectively?

Originally posted by Trent W

I mean Whitney has a very influential voice, but Beyonce as an artist has been way more culturally relevant and influential.

You're gonna need insurance for this claim.

Originally posted by Trent W

Idk why is this so hard to get.

When you're preaching to the choir, but you're the preacher and the choir.....

[swissman]

Originally posted by Mr. Wonder

The charts don't say that. Her sales don't say that. The only aspect that's expanding is her tour gross, and industry that has become more of a commercial juggernaut than it was 10 and 20 years ago. People are talking, but they aren't buying.

What?

Album sales are so low. Single sales are even low!
Beyoncé gave a song away for free for 3 months and it still debuted at #10! Most pop girl's lead single don't do that.
And actually charts do say that she is a powerful brand. ST broke iTunes records, Lemonade was the first album to have all the songs chart on the Hot 100 in a single week. Come on now.

She has the highest selling female album of the year.
What was the highest selling female album of the late 1980s, early 1990s? That's the comparison that should be made.

[Chimier]

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

What exactly were Whitney's contributions? There were plenty of black women before her bringing big voices and gospel to pop (Aretha, most significantly), enjoying massive commercial success (Diana, Tina), and that were far more subversive/challenging/innovative artists (Bessie, Etta, Nina, Grace, Donna)...

You say "plenty" of black women, then only name Aretha. LOL.

Aretha's was straight up-gospel, with smatterings of jazz in her rhythmic delivery. Whitney was different. Her's was a combination of gospel virtuosity and pop sensibility. Example: How Will I Know. She's floating in the song like Diana Ross would do, delivering the melody very cleanly, sweetly and effortlessly,. But the power and athleticism of her voice is like Aretha. It's almost as if she combined Baby Love and Respect into one song vocally.

And she could apply it to any musical style and make it work: sweeping ballads, dance-pop, slick R&B sounds, both traditional and contemporary. And for the past thirty years, that pop-gospel singing style has defined great pop singing and has been the school where every major vocalist since has graduated from.

Etta was a challenging artist? Really? You seem to just be talking. She was subversive in her image. Her look. Her music? Not so much. It was great, high-quality R&B and soul with her singing her heart and her feelings out on wax.

You've named all these different black female artists in an attempt to question and downplay Whitney's contributions, when it's clear you have no idea what their contributions are.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

I understand that Whitney was the biggest of them all, hence the "barrier-breaking", but when her music was so painfully beige and essentially apolitical - and her image so pampered and conventional - not to mention the fact that she was entirely manufactured... what else is there to value?

Whitney breaking barriers isn't because she was the biggest of them all. You can be as large as you want and not break through anything. However, Whitney is the biggest, because she not only benefited from the contributions of these women, but she furthered them.
Example: would be commercial success. Diana Ross and the Supremes rivaled the Beatles. Donna Summer had multiple #1 and multiplatinum albums.
Whitney came out singing pop and R&B in a very rock-dominated era and outsold her white and male peers, and because of this, ushered in a new era for pop music and singing.

You Madonna stans really need to let this mindset go. Not every artist desired to make political statements with their music, or inspire social change, or be against the grain. Most exist to make music and that's that.

And.every.major.artist is manufactured. Even the "unmanufactured" ones. That is the nature of the music industry. Making an image, maintaining an image. It's all manufactured.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit

And why does the "barrier-breaking" preclude Beyoncé from consideration as being more culturally significant? Barbey d'Aurevilly paved the way for Proust...

Because Beyonce has benefited from the barriers broken more than she has broken barriers herself. She has continued to walk in the paths cleared by others, but hasn't furthered the paths themselves.

Example: Diana Ross cleared the path for Whitney to have success in Hollywood. At one point, Whitney was the highest-paid actress in Hollywood. Whitney's success in Hollywood led to more studios writing fleshed-out roles for black actresses. Many black actresses have discussed how they started going for main roles because of Whitney Houston. Many film roles she turned down were in turn given to other black actresses to play. Beyonce has furthered this how?

Another example: Mary J. Blige stated how performing with Whitney Houston on VH1 Divas in 1999 strengthened her worldwide presence. Anita Baker stated how black women were not seen as "taboo" anymore in terms of marketability because of Whitney's success. How has Beyonce furthered or surpassed this?

Another example: Whitney Houston was criticized for being "too white" because she sang pop music. And what happened? She kept singing pop. In 2016, black female artists singing pop is no longer an issue (e.g. Beyonce). What exactly has Beyonce furthered or surpassed in that regard? Nothing.

You clearly don't know the cultural significance of the ladies you mentioned before, so you're definitely not going to know Beyonce's.

Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit;37435298/

I wouldn't play up this part of Whitney's legacy. Not sure if "farting on a reality TV show with husband Bobby Brown" is being romanticised á la Kurt Cobain or something... more along the lines of Rick James...

It's part of her story, so....

[Mr. Wonder]

Originally posted by swissman

What?

Album sales are so low. Single sales are even low!
Beyoncé gave a song away for free for 3 months and it still debuted at #10! Most pop girl's lead single don't do that.
And actually charts do say that she is a powerful brand. ST broke iTunes records, Lemonade was the first album to have all the songs chart on the Hot 100 in a single week. Come on now.

She has the highest selling female album of the year.
What was the highest selling female album of the late 1980s, early 1990s? That's the comparison that should be made.

I responded to a comment that Beyonce's brand is 10x more powerful than Whitney and Mariah's. But is it really? Beyonce's last #1 hit was in the same year as Mariah's, who was 18 years into her career at that point, versus Beyonce who was 5 years into her solo career, and 11 years into her entertainment career. Mariah at 35 released Emancipation, Beyonce at 35 released Lemonade. Disregarding sales, Emancipation's chart stats are far more impressive than Lemonade's.

Whitney at 35 notched another 3 top tens with MLIYL, and was prepping a hits compilation that would go on to sell 10 million copies with no new material prior to her passing. At this time she was only 15 years into her music career. 15 years into Beyonce's music career the only thing that's going up for her is her tour gross. This is why I said about 10 pages back that using the "20 years into her career" narrative is not doing the hive any favors.

[Trent W]

Originally posted by Mr. Wonder

No she is. Metacritic scores and album reviews do not illustrate examples of "acclaim". Stop using words of which you don't know the definition. Same with "respected", you don't even know what that means, and are clearly misapplying the definition within the context of.

Is more than just reviews, she's praised by absolutely everyone on the industry and the GP who isn't biased against her respects her too.

I know is hard to swallow that a current superstar passed legends from the past. But we have a lot points in her favor.

Maybe it's that the current market is more global but she's way bigger WW than them.

[Opium]

Originally posted by jose168;37407340[B

]Lemonade outpeaked and outperformed My Love is your love on every country on the planet [/B](aside JP). and that was just whitneys fourth album. and then she was a major commercial failure/has been the entire 2000s decade. If she hadn't died this wouldn't even be up for discussion

slay them 1k copies in each 50 small and irrelevant countries I guess

[swissman]

Originally posted by Chimier

Many black actresses have discussed how they started going for main roles because of Whitney Houston. Many films she turned down were in turn given to other black actresses to play. Beyonce has furthered this how?

Another example: Mary J. Blige stated how performing with Whitney Houston on VH1 Divas in 1999 strengthened her worldwide presence. Has any artist who has worked with Beyonce spoken of something similar?

Another example: Whitney Houston was criticized for being "too white" because she sang pop music. And what happened? She kept singing pop. In 2016, black female artists singing pop is no longer an issue (e.g. Beyonce). What exactly has Beyonce furthered in that regard? Nothing.

You clearly don't know the cultural significance of the ladies you mentioned before, so you're definitely not going to know Beyonce's.

Beyoncé and Whitney don't have to have the same legacies to be comparable.

[Temporal]

Originally posted by IMPACTNET.

No and she never will. She has not surpassed either in impact, influence or success. Mariah and Whitney were by far the biggest sellers of their prime. Beyoncé was and is not. Most of you weren't even born when Whitney and Mariah were in their primes, so I don't understand how any of you can suggest that she has surpassed them in fame. Beyoncé is not more popular than Whitney was during The Bodyguard or Mariah in 1995. Beyoncé benefits from the Internet age, which has contributed to her media presence. Neither Whitney or Mariah benefitted from such avenues, and even still Beyoncé has not surpassed them. Musically, Whitney and Mariah have contributed much more to music with their voices alone. Beyoncé, while extremely talented, just isn't an innovator. She moreso takes what already exists musically and puts her own style into it. And she does it well. I won't deny Beyoncé is impactful, but her impact and influence does not supersede Mariah or Whitney's.

BOOM. I love Beyoncé, but she hasn't surpassed or really even come close to Whitney and Mariah in really any avenue (sans touring). The Hive really need to back off of these ludicrous claims.

[Chimier]

Originally posted by swissman

His talent is part of his legacy as his talent manifests itself in his style and that is passed down. His dancing abilities, his performing qualities are part of his legacies and you can see and hear it in the performance styles of: Usher, Justin Timberlake, Chris Brown, Bruno Mars, Ne-Yo etc. etc. etc.

Then that means his INFLUENCE is his legacy. Which is what I said. His legacy is based upon his talent and artistic efforts, just like every other artist. That doesn't mean it IS his talent.

Whitney's legacy is not her voice. Her legacy is her influence on music via singing and musical style.

Originally posted by swissman

Beyoncé and Whitney don't have to have the same legacies to be comparable.

What are you even saying? Have I not been making comparisons between the two all this time?

[6_INCH_HEELS]

WOW. 20 pages.

Ummm, I'm going to say why the **** not.

[Mr. Wonder]

Originally posted by Trent W

Is more than just reviews, she's praised by absolutely everyone on the industry and the GP who isn't biased against her respects her too.

That's not acclaim, that's simply what you said - praise. And, again, between Whitney, Mariah, and Beyonce, only one of these women have a title inducted in the Grammy HOF. Guess who it is.....

Originally posted by Trent W

I know is hard to swallow that a current superstar passed legends from the past. But we have a lot points in her favor.

In what ways? How has she advanced popular culture in a greater degree than Whitney and Mariah?

Originally posted by Trent W

Maybe it's that the current market is more global but she's way bigger WW than them.

She's not even bigger than them in the US.

[swissman]

Originally posted by Mr. Wonder

I responded to a comment that Beyonce's brand is 10x more powerful than Whitney and Mariah's. But is it really? Beyonce's last #1 hit was in the same year as Mariah's, who was 18 years into her career at that point, versus Beyonce who was 5 years into her solo career, and 11 years into her entertainment career. Mariah at 35 released Emancipation, Beyonce at 35 released Lemonade. Disregarding sales, Emancipation's chart stats are far more impressive than Lemonade's.

Whitney at 35 notched another 3 top tens with MLIYL, and was prepping a hits compilation that would go on to sell 10 million copies with no new material prior to her passing. At this time she was only 15 years into her music career. 15 years into Beyonce's music career the only thing that's going up for her is her tour gross. This is why I said about 10 pages back that using the "20 years into her career" narrative is not doing the hive any favors.

Why are you talking about #1 hits? Who cares. Can you just re-read my comment and see what she’s done in the time since her last #1 hit. You see, Beyoncé is bigger than ever and she has not needed any #1s to prove that to the world.

Comparing Emancipation from 2005 to Lemonade from 2016 is silly, especially since they had entirely different eras in regards to how the stats you so badly want to compare were attained.

The 20 years thing works because it shows her longevity, the success she STILL has (she has the most successful selling album by a woman this year, how is that not an accomplishment 20 years later?) and more importantly, critical acclaim.

[AALIYAH DANA]

can this thread be closed now... this is draining and no longer funny

[swissman]

Originally posted by Chimier

Then that means his INFLUENCE is his legacy. Which is what I said. His legacy is based upon his talent and artistic efforts, just like every other artist. That doesn't mean it IS his talent.

Whitney's legacy is not her voice. Her legacy is her influence on music via singing and musical style.



What are you even saying? Have I not been making comparisons between the two all this time?

lol I don’t think I said his talent is to have a legacy but ok.

Anyway
I am saying that Beyoncé and Whitney don’t have to have comparable legacies to be on par.

Because Whitney broke barriers for black actresses, doesn’t mean that Beyoncé has to. Because Beyoncé breaks down the stereotypes of feminism for the masses, doesn’t mean Whitney needs to have done that.
You comment was comparing them face to face for qualities that don’t need to be the same.

[Chimier]

Originally posted by swissman

lol I don’t think I said his talent is to have a legacy but ok.

Anyway
I am saying that Beyoncé and Whitney don’t have to have comparable legacies to be on par.

Because Whitney broke barriers for black actresses, doesn’t mean that Beyoncé did. Because Beyoncé breaks down the stereotypes of feminism for the masses, doesn’t mean Whitney does.
You comment was comparing them face to face for qualities that don’t need to be the same.

Breaks down the stereotypes of feminism for the masses....really? Because it seems to me that the conversation of what is and isn't feminism is still going on. It seems to me that Beyonce is just once again igniting conversation on feminism, as opposed to breaking new ground.

And my whole point is that Beyonce and Whitney are NOT the same, when it comes to significance and sheer influence on culture and music, due to very different circumstances of their respective eras, the kinds of artists they were and how much of what Beyonce has is a result of things Whitney had to break through.