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Discussion: U.S. Election 2016
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Anybody who thinks logically doesn't expect people to take him for his word while dismissing actually objective data such as approval ratings which everyone in Washington takes seriously and were the driving factor behind the Benghazi hearings which cost tens of millions of dollars. If she was seriously hated, they wouldn't have tried that. Too bad Bernie had to join in the character assassination campaign for his own gain and misled his cult-like following.
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Member Since: 10/2/2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
Hillary shouldn't have been the nominee, she was a week candidate, mired in scandal, and was the antithesis of what Americans inside and outside of the Democratic base wanted to see. All Bernie did was point out this obvious fact and provide an alternative. If you want to cling to her average approval ratings as Senator and Secretary of State to delude yourself into believe she wasn't one of the most hated politicians in US history, that's your prerogative I guess - but anybody who thinks logically will recognize that the election was lost the second that Hillary was nominated
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Minorities did not turn-out for Bernie in the primary and even with Obama's speeches praising Bernie you think they would've outweighed the voters in the Rust Belt that flipped? The Rust Belt voters largely flipped from voting Obama originally because they feel he didn't live up to his promises.
Hillary was deeply flawed but there is no evidence Bernie would've flipped those voters that went to Trump and turned out more minorities to outweigh the white working class. None.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 19,066
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Blackout
If not for all of those Asian countries, TPP would actually be a good deal.
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The fact that he couldn't even get the Dems to support it says it all
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueTimberwolf
The fact that he couldn't even get the Dems to support it says it all
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Because all of those Asian countries would end up getting all of the jobs. Everyone likes to criticize NAFTA but it created as many jobs as it lost. Some industry rose while others sunk. TPP with all of those Asian countries would basically cost us jobs in every field which is strange because Obama has created a great number of jobs so far so it's weird seeing him willing to sacrifice that.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Hillary did not lose because of Bernie pointing out her painfully obvious character flaws, Comey's letter, Russian interference, racist rednecks, sexists, or even Jill Stein taking her votes - she lost because she did nothing to win the votes of the white working class. If you believe anything else you're just being delusional
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Literally, how did she do nothing for the WWC? She gave them actual plans to give them jobs that are viable for the future. She gave them a possibility of actually going to school with no debt to stop being working class. She gave them affordable healthcare and maternity leave. Maybe she should have added free access to her house for good measure then suddenly she'd be doing as much for them as the "We're gonna bring your jobs back" nonsense that not even Newt Gingrich thought was possible. Like, sorry she actually spoke for them like they don't have **** for brains. If that's considered elitist, then they'll deserve every bit of their suffering in the next 4 years.
Those WWC just fell for the character assassination that's been ongoing since 2013.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Espresso
Minorities did not turn-out for Bernie in the primary and even with Obama's speeches praising Bernie you think they would've outweighed the voters in the Rust Belt that flipped? The Rust Belt voters largely flipped from voting Obama originally because they feel he didn't live up to his promises.
Hillary was deeply flawed but there is no evidence Bernie would've flipped those voters that went to Trump and turned out more minorities to outweigh the white working class. None.
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Bernie was very unfamiliar to minorities during the primary - chances are as the nominee he would have done just as well as Hillary with minority voters because (1) he's not completely disingenuous and (2) it wouldn't be hard to at least match Hillary's less-than-stellar numbers with minorities.
If you're going to completely ignore the white working class, you better make sure you're driving up minority voter turnout and you also had better make sure you're getting an overwhelming majority of those minorities. Hillary did neither of those things.
Tell me again how she was such a strong candidate?
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 14,321
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
Bernie was very unfamiliar to minorities during the primary - chances are as the nominee he would have done just as well as Hillary with minority voters because (1) he's not completely disingenuous and (2) it wouldn't be hard to at least match Hillary's less-than-stellar numbers with minorities.
If you're going to completely ignore the white working class, you better make sure you're driving up minority voter turnout and you also had better make sure you're getting an overwhelming majority of those minorities. Hillary did neither of those things.
Tell me again how she was such a strong candidate?
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Mmm sis, Bernie's numbers with minorities would be even less. The Abuelas wouldn't have gone out of their way as much. Sure, they'll vote for anyone with a D next to their name, but don't think he would've gotten Hillary and Obama minority numbers. Obama > Hillary > Bernie, that would be the descending order of who can turn out all minorities and with Latinos, flip Hillary with Obama. She is loved by Tias and Nanas. Nevada was 20,000 ahead (Ralston thinks it's because of the Cardenas story and record breaking early vote that in-person people felt relaxed and slowed down) and thanks to us, it stayed blue and slayed local elections as well. Then there's Arizona only 90,000 behind.
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Member Since: 10/2/2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
Bernie was very unfamiliar to minorities during the primary - chances are as the nominee he would have done just as well as Hillary with minority voters because (1) he's not completely disingenuous and (2) it wouldn't be hard to at least match Hillary's less-than-stellar numbers with minorities.
If you're going to completely ignore the white working class, you better make sure you're driving up minority voter turnout and you also had better make sure you're getting an overwhelming majority of those minorities. Hillary did neither of those things.
Tell me again how she was such a strong candidate?
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You have to drive up both white working class and minority turn-out.
She was deeply flawed (I'm not suggesting otherwise) but went hard against Bernie (with good reason) for the holes in his plans, laid bare in several interviews when called on it (New York Daily News for one).
Neither of us will know if Bernie would've won - I personally think Bernie would've lost. I think Trump would've had a harder time but he still would've been effective in hurting Bernie for the white rust-belt voters that wanted to flip - don't forget that oppo file we talked about earlier in the thread. I'd argue Bernie wouldn't have inspired as much minority turn-out.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Blackout
Literally, how did she do nothing for the WWC? She gave them actual plans to give them jobs that are viable for the future. She gave them a possibility of actually going to school with no debt to stop being working class. She gave them affordable healthcare and maternity leave. Maybe she should have added free access to her house for good measure then suddenly she'd be doing as much for them as the "We're gonna bring your jobs back" nonsense that not even Newt Gingrich thought was possible. Like, sorry she actually spoke for them like they don't have **** for brains. If that's considered elitist, then they'll deserve every bit of their suffering in the next 4 years.
Those WWC just fell for the character assassination that's been ongoing since 2013.
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she told them their jobs were gone forever and that she would institute retraining programs to help them get new, greener jobs. not exactly the message of hope that they were looking for. someone in their late 40's doesn't want to go back to school, they want a job now, so of course Trump's nonsensical campaign message that he would bring their jobs back was music to their ears. Hillary couldn't even admit that Obama had divested from coal too quickly and that led to a lot of job loss in a short period of time.
the attacks on Hillary's character were not baseless - she is actually a corporatist and a globalist but claims to be neither when she runs an election. she claims she'll be tough on wall street and then takes wall street money. she changes positions with the weather depending on what is polling better that year (see: gay marriage). it's not "character assassination" she actually just has weak character. it's still so crazy to me that after Republicans nominated the most hated candidate in modern political history, Democrats chose to nominate the second most hated.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Espresso
You have to drive up both white working class and minority turn-out.
She was deeply flawed (I'm not suggesting otherwise) but went hard against Bernie (with good reason) for the holes in his plans, laid bare in several interviews when called on it (New York Daily News for one).
Neither of us will know if Bernie would've won - I personally think Bernie would've lost. I think Trump would've had a harder time but he still would've been effective in hurting Bernie for the white rust-belt voters that wanted to flip - don't forget that oppo file we talked about earlier in the thread. I'd argue Bernie wouldn't have inspired as much minority turn-out.
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again - Hillary has some of the worst minority voting numbers of any recent Democratic nominee. it would not be hard for anyone else to match those. they were the bare minimum. she did not inspire confidence in minorities, come voting day. it's not like her abysmal numbers with the brown working class would be hard to match.
as for that oppostion file: it paled in comparison to what they used against Hillary - a series of very recent scandals, both foreign and domestic, that are actually relevant to the lives of the American people. she was the opposition's best case scenario. the most damning thing they had on Bernie was tenuous ties to foreign socialist movements
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Member Since: 8/26/2012
Posts: 3,733
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Member Since: 5/19/2012
Posts: 3,759
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I was discussing with my friend about Hillary running again in 2020. She did win the popular vote, and by a big margin. The 2016 electoral map would show her where to campaign heavy in. And if Donald Trump keeps this messiness up, I can see a lot of his supporters regretting their vote for him. Not to mention the 2020 election is when all millennials are able to vote.
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Member Since: 3/5/2011
Posts: 15,589
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Hillary was much, much weaker than Bernie.
Hillary didn't even get minorities to show up either (which is why she lost Michigan for example) so i'm not seeing what advantage she'd have over him in the general...?
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
she told them their jobs were gone forever and that she would institute retraining programs to help them get new, greener jobs. not exactly the message of hope that they were looking for. someone in their late 40's doesn't want to go back to school, they want a job now, so of course Trump's nonsensical campaign message that he would bring their jobs back was music to their ears. Hillary couldn't even admit that Obama had divested from coal too quickly and that led to a lot of job loss in a short period of time.
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She told them the absolute truth but she's supposed to be punished for that? Besides, without the Affordable Care Act they won't have protection from black lung disease so they ****ed themselves up in every way possible. I'd say that in comparison learning a new craft that's actually good for your health and is likely to last for life was the right message, but what do I know? And as I said before, Hillary can't bash the Obama administration. Hell she doesn't even go IN on George Bush. It's just not who she is and it's silly to expect him to stab Obama in the back nor is she responsible for his decisions.
Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
the attacks on Hillary's character were not baseless - she is actually a corporatist and a globalist but claims to be neither when she runs an election. she claims she'll be tough on wall street and then takes wall street money. she changes positions with the weather depending on what is polling better that year (see: gay marriage). it's not "character assassination" she actually just has weak character. it's still so crazy to me that after Republicans nominated the most hated candidate in modern political history, Democrats chose to nominate the second most hated.
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You have zero proof of her somehow taking money from Wall St speeches (which is really just based on her value as a political star rather than the content of her speeches) means she'll deregulate it Bush style (Which is what the populist candidate is doing now). It was just a stupid assumption and a vicious character assassination. As for gay marriage, people like to act as if she was once pro-gay beheading then flip-flopped to pro-gay marriage. She was pro-gay civil unions like Obama and voted for every possible bill that'd actually allow gay marriage to be legalized and LGBT interests to be implemented. She took the safest approach possible to ensure that she kept her seat in congress at a time when the country wasn't exactly pro-gay and her seat was always eyed by some republican that's the actual raging homophobe.
Character assassination is only okay when it comes from the opposite party. Bernie played dirty and attacked her personally just as much as the republicans did in their debates (They never mentioned Bernie btw) so of course at the end the WWC wouldn't go to her. They were Bernie's coalition, they were not exactly the smartest coalition, and they were force fed anti-Hillary smear campaigns from both the left and the right. It's not rocket science that they wouldn't go to her no matter how hard she tried to remind them of Trump actually stifling their kind.
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Member Since: 8/26/2012
Posts: 3,733
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Hillary's done.
If the Democrats run another boring white.man in 4 yrs (see 2000/04) or a wannabe Obama (Booker) they deserve to lose every state.
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Member Since: 3/24/2012
Posts: 4,192
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Lady
I was discussing with my friend about Hillary running again in 2020. She did win the popular vote, and by a big margin. The 2016 electoral map would show her where to campaign heavy in. And if Donald Trump keeps this messiness up, I can see a lot of his supporters regretting their vote for him. Not to mention the 2020 election is when all millennials are able to vote.
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No way. I LOVE Hillary but she's been through enough. She's dedicated her entire life to helping families and kids (not to sound cliche but it's true) and yeah she's made mistakes along the way but people literally sh*tted on her in the worst way possible by electing a misogynistic, racist, homophobic, bigot, reality TV star over her.
And after this election, it's kind of shown that no matter how hard she works or what she does, people won't fully come around to her for nonsensical reasons.
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Member Since: 3/5/2011
Posts: 15,589
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Lady
I was discussing with my friend about Hillary running again in 2020. She did win the popular vote, and by a big margin. The 2016 electoral map would show her where to campaign heavy in. And if Donald Trump keeps this messiness up, I can see a lot of his supporters regretting their vote for him. Not to mention the 2020 election is when all millennials are able to vote.
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No, the Clintons are done.
There are other qualified people (where? idk) who deserve a shot.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damien M
Hillary was much, much weaker than Bernie.
Hillary didn't even get minorities to show up either (which is why she lost Michigan for example) so i'm not seeing what advantage she'd have over him in the general...?
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literally like I like Lulu and everything but how can you argue that the "abuelas" turned out for Hillary when she lost FL
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Hillary had better minority numbers than both Gore and Kerry. It's the white vote she lost by huge margins. Her minority vote was only disappointing compared to Obama who was a phenomenon in that aspect.
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