Science tells us there's (mainly) two sexes. This is not gender.
What you're doing is like race biologists trying to measure the skulls of human beings and make "categories" of races based on certain data (which.....led to really awful things and people studying how to eliminate specific races).
The way, for example, many anthropologists as scientists in the last few decades classified and examined "race" with groupings like mongoloid, negroid, etc. (many of whom would go on to later suggest being "mongoloid" was linked to having downs syndrome...) was deemed unethical and IS clearly different from the way PEOPLE see race as a social construction. If you can't separate how something exists as a social construction to a very rigid (often outdated) scientific way to tackle it, you have a very rigid view of the 'sciences' that lacks nuance.
White latinos are considered white in certain cultures, but people of color in others because racialization is a social phenomena and the way race is socially constructed varies by societal system. Should we then say unless white latinos' skulls in America don't vary from white latinos' skulls in Colombia, words like "racialization" and "people of color" are useless? Of course not, because science does not start and stop at biology, does not start and stop in the realm of a science lab where views on the world are restricted to just test tubes and the physical. If you don't consider the social sciences, your "science is law" approach is just dishonest and fraudulent.
If you can't recognize that gender identity is something socially constructed and completely different (and almost impossible for us to tackle scientifically, just as the way race is socially constructed and cannot truly be summed up by very outdated and offensive racial biology) than your very clinical grasp on the sexes, you can't have this conversation honestly. Until you recognize the reality that sex =/= gender, everything you say will be intellectually dishonest.
So let me get this straight: first you dismiss what Arielle said in the video because she has no scientific reasoning behind it yet now you are claiming that science isn't really capable of answering the question at hand anyway? Also, I don't really know why you deflected to race studies. Well, I do see your attempt to paint everyone with opposing views to yours as terrible people by somehow managing to make such a huge jump that all of a sudden you are comparing me to people who try to work out which race of people is inferior and needs to be eradicated nice ad hominem there. And obviously I have never stated that I think people who identify as anything other than male or female are somehow worth less.inferior or need to be eradicated.
I am well capable of understanding the difference between sex and gender.
The idea that gender is completely constructed is refuted by biology since different sex hormones have different effects on beahviour. For example here is a great, albeit long, article on the effects testoterone can have on various aspects of behaviour with much more further reading material.
This idea that we have taken personality traits and interests and randomly assigned "masculine" and "feminine" to them is inaccurate since there are distinct behavioural differences and interests that are more common in one sex than the other due to, but not limited to. for example hormones. Obviously we have socially constructed some aspects of gender, colors being an obvious example, but this idea that everything about gender is socially constructed is not reflected by biology.
Science in the way YOU choose to see it. If you continually deny the social sciences as valid, you're no worse than extremists who think the Earth is flat. There's a plethora of intelligences in the world and we must consult them all.
Gender Identity =/= Sex =/= Gender Expression.
Erase the words 'male/female' form this discussion. Erase any discussion of biology. If you're here for a discussion on GENDER, the conversation is only in terms of the social construction and the impact of these construction on the feelings of people and how they identify. If you want studies, we can even discuss the field of neuroscience and disprove the belief of "male brains" and "female brains" as wholly separate when the majority of the population have a mixed combination of traits of the brain that are not exclusive to any sex traits/sex category and that the brain, in itself, can exist in a place wholly separate from one's sex characteristics and sex traits. That the brain can exist in a space where non-binary gender identities are a possibility because gender exists as a concept in the mind not inherent to or biologically connected to that of sex.To even insist that there are wholly male brains or wholly female brains goes against the findings that suggest such distinctions are useless and intellectually dishonest to assign certain elements of the mind to "maleness" or "femaleness'.
Science in the way YOU choose to see it. If you continually deny the social sciences as valid, you're no worse than extremists who think the Earth is flat. There's a plethora of intelligences in the world and we must consult them all.
Gender Identity =/= Sex =/= Gender Expression.
Erase the words 'male/female' form this discussion. Erase any discussion of biology. If you're here for a discussion on GENDER, the conversation is only in terms of the social construction and the impact of these construction on the feelings of people and how they identify. If you want studies, we can even discuss the field of neuroscience and disprove the belief of "male brains" and "female brains" as wholly separate when the majority of the population have a mixed combination of traits of the brain that are not exclusive to any sex traits/sex category and that the brain, in itself, can exist in a place wholly separate from one's sex characteristics and sex traits. That the brain can exist in a space where non-binary gender identities are a possibility because gender exists as a concept in the mind not inherent to or biologically connected to that of sex.To even insist that there are wholly male brains or wholly female brains goes against the findings that suggest such distinctions are useless and intellectually dishonest to assign certain elements of the mind to "maleness" or "femaleness'.
wearing a dress or a make-up (if you're male) without taking any actual medical procedures makes you nothing more than a cross-dresser. Doing so and labelling it as a xyzgender and using xe pronouns does not make you a "transgender". It's actually people who think that men must be masculine in order to be "male" in biology is what's wrong. There are two genders: male and female. And there is legit no point of even having all these irrelevant gender labels and make it seem so complicated when no one cares in real world about how some special snowflake feels about his gender expression needs to have it's own gender label and gender pronouns.
I want a world where gender doesn't exist. We are just all born human and no physical, mental, or emotional things are gendered. So everyone can do and be w.e they want without being seen as a freak.
Then again, I'm a Christian so idk why I'm in this thread.
wearing a dress or a make-up (if you're male) without taking any actual medical procedures makes you nothing more than a cross-dresser
Are you serious? Just expose yourself as a transphobe. You're not even just attacking NB folks now, you're attacking thousands of trans folks. If someone identifies as female, they don't need to undergo certain procedures or medical treatments to fill your quota and metrics of IDENTITY.
Are you sure you're not religious? Your doctrine is basically one of a religious person. Might as well change your user to AbrahamicLaQueen. You basically have views on sex that mirror the extremist Muslims you hate. Social scientists strive to enter a post-gender society to end patriarchy while you use rigid views on gender rooted in 3rd-world takes on sex that mimic religious nonsense. Get. it. together.
Science in the way YOU choose to see it. If you continually deny the social sciences as valid, you're no worse than extremists who think the Earth is flat. There's a plethora of intelligences in the world and we must consult them all.
Gender Identity =/= Sex =/= Gender Expression.
Erase the words 'male/female' form this discussion. Erase any discussion of biology. If you're here for a discussion on GENDER, the conversation is only in terms of the social construction and the impact of these construction on the feelings of people and how they identify. If you want studies, we can even discuss the field of neuroscience and disprove the belief of "male brains" and "female brains" as wholly separate when the majority of the population have a mixed combination of traits of the brain that are not exclusive to any sex traits/sex category and that the brain, in itself, can exist in a place wholly separate from one's sex characteristics and sex traits. That the brain can exist in a space where non-binary gender identities are a possibility because gender exists as a concept in the mind not inherent to or biologically connected to that of sex.To even insist that there are wholly male brains or wholly female brains goes against the findings that suggest such distinctions are useless and intellectually dishonest to assign certain elements of the mind to "maleness" or "femaleness'.
I don't deny social science? How are you always coming to conclusions that are miles off?
The article I linked you to was a psychology article; psychology IS a social science
And why on earth would you erase the word female and male from a discussion about gender?
Are those not genders anymore?
Also, you linked to a very interesting and insightful article which corresponds with what I said about most people not being 100% masculine or femenine in nature.
The point, which was the point all along, the excess influx in labels is pointless.
Not fitting male or female gender identities is not contradicting to the idea of two genders.
Being neither is not a new gender. Switching between both is not a new gender. Being on any place on the spectrum between the two is not a new gender.
Yet you continue to use labels like "male" and "female".
Let's destroy sex altogether. If our brains are not wholly male or female, than labels like "male" and "female" become excessive and pointless, no? That's what it is by definition.
If your ONLY argument is that you don't find the need for nonbinary labels, you can't begrudge those who reject the labels of male/female or man/woman as excessive too. You can't even show that every single human brain is 100% dependent on the sex traits of its person, yet want to use silly labels like "male" and "female" in a totalitarian way?
So the argument / discussion is not that there's factually only 2 genders. It's that YOU have decided by your preferred metrics that the evidence should only be articulated as "2 genders" and the factually existing "extra stuff" isn't significant enough for you to feel it warrants more articulation on gender. Yet you've not done anything to prove why people who choose to articulate that this means there's more than 2 genders are wrong. You've done nothing.
wearing a dress or a make-up (if you're male) without taking any actual medical procedures makes you nothing more than a cross-dresser. Doing so and labelling it as a xyzgender and using xe pronouns does not make you a "transgender". It's actually people who think that men must be masculine in order to be "male" in biology is what's wrong. There are two genders: male and female. And there is legit no point of even having all these irrelevant gender labels and make it seem so complicated when no one cares in real world about how some special snowflake feels about his gender expression needs to have it's own gender label and gender pronouns.
Lol, sis let's not go there. Gender dismorphia is real. Lots of people around the world cannot afford or do not go through sex reassignment surgery yet they live their lives and feel mentally as a member of the sex they identify with. You do NOT need to go through surgery to be trans.
Gender is a social construct just like race so we can have it mean anything we want to. In the US, the 'white' label used to apply only to Anglo-Saxon Protestant men descended from the British and Germans. Nowadays people from places as far as India are considered 'Caucasian' in some forms. Neither of those labels are correct because at the end race is not defined by genetics but by society. Gender is the same. Our perceptions are frequently changing and if someone chooses not to identify with the binary, I'd say let them. We should be less worried about them and more about people who are actually persecuting non-religious folks. Certain states in America still do NOT allow atheists to become governors, for example.
Yet you continue to use labels like "male" and "female".
Let's destroy sex altogether. If our brains are not wholly male or female, than labels like "male" and "female" become excessive and pointless, no? That's what it is by definition.
If your ONLY argument is that you don't find the need for nonbinary labels, you can't begrudge those who reject the labels of male/female or man/woman as excessive too. You can't even show that every single human brain is 100% dependent on the sex traits of its person, yet want to use silly labels like "male" and "female" in a totalitarian way?
So the argument / discussion is not that there's factually only 2 genders. It's that YOU have decided by your preferred metrics that the evidence should only be articulated as "2 genders" and the factually existing "extra stuff" isn't significant enough for you to feel it warrants more articulation on gender. Yet you've not done anything to prove why people who choose to articulate that this means there's more than 2 genders are wrong. You've done nothing.
Male or female are not excessive, they are the bare minimum to differenciate between men and women. If you want a simple analogy then male and female are red,green,yellow etc. and all the "new gender" words are medium magenta and light magenta. Sure they are different but not worth the mention.Doesn't mean you can't paint your house in light magenta but realise there will be people who will see pink when they look at it.
Also I don't begrudge anyone who identifies as whatever they want. As long as they don't attack and bother anyone else they can identify as a dragon for all I care. (as I typed this I realised there are actually people who do so so this hyperbole kind of lost its meaning I guess ).
I usually like to participate in drama and clock someone but I'm too lazy to read the long paragraphs
But i'll say this:
Gender: A social construct we developed since the dawn of our existence. Even cavemen had gender roles. But for me, personally, It's okay to bend the rules since most of them nowadays are silly. Are really expected to make sandwiches in the kitchen of you're born a female and go to work and exhaust yourself all alone just because you're the man? No, rules have changed. It's not the 50's anymore.
Sex: You can't change that. It's DNA, and there are only two existing types of reproductive systems that complement each other.
I usually like to participate in drama and clock someone but I'm too lazy to read the long paragraphs
But i'll say this:
Gender: A social construct we developed since the dawn of our existence. Even cavemen had gender roles. But for me, personally, It's okay to bend the rules since most of them nowadays are silly. Are really expected to make sandwiches in the kitchen of you're born a female and go to work and exhaust yourself all alone just because you're the man? No, rules have changed. It's not the 50's anymore.
Sex: You can't change that. It's DNA, and there are only two existing types of reproductive systems that complement each other.
I agree. Gender, and the whole masculinity vs feminine thing are stupid social constructs that ruin individuality.
Everyone is human, (that should be our only label) and all our distinctions should be accepted as unique, not classified into male/female binaries.
Are you serious? Just expose yourself as a transphobe. You're not even just attacking NB folks now, you're attacking thousands of trans folks. If someone identifies as female, they don't need to undergo certain procedures or medical treatments to fill your quota and metrics of IDENTITY.
Are you sure you're not religious? Your doctrine is basically one of a religious person. Might as well change your user to AbrahamicLaQueen. You basically have views on sex that mirror the extremist Muslims you hate. Social scientists strive to enter a post-gender society to end patriarchy while you use rigid views on gender rooted in 3rd-world takes on sex that mimic religious nonsense. Get. it. together.
transition tends to have a need for medical treatment. It's biology hun. I also want a world where men and women would be equal, but that doesn't mean we must ignore biology and the fact men on average are more stronger than women for example, among other scientific reasons.
Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
Lol, sis let's not go there. Gender dismorphia is real. Lots of people around the world cannot afford or do not go through sex reassignment surgery yet they live their lives and feel mentally as a member of the sex they identify with. You do NOT need to go through surgery to be trans.
Gender is a social construct just like race so we can have it mean anything we want to. In the US, the 'white' label used to apply only to Anglo-Saxon Protestant men descended from the British and Germans. Nowadays people from places as far as India are considered 'Caucasian' in some forms. Neither of those labels are correct because at the end race is not defined by genetics but by society. Gender is the same. Our perceptions are frequently changing and if someone chooses not to identify with the binary, I'd say let them. We should be less worried about them and more about people who are actually persecuting non-religious folks. Certain states in America still do NOT allow atheists to become governors, for example.
I was not talking about sex reassignment sis
transition as in taking hormon pills, growing breasts, voice training, etc. and vice versa. Otherwise, the person is a transvestite.
Gender is a biological-based construct. For being that, you don't have to have a vagina or a penis to identify as the opposite sex if you're taking medical transititon that examples were already mentioned. And I agree we should be talking about those issues too, but we started a conversation about this since atheist YouTuber made a video about here and we're currently having a discussion. And I would love to continue having one with y'all, but I gotta go take a shower and then go to bed, I have to wake up early tomorrow for my driving school!
Good night y'all
Also I don't begrudge anyone who identifies as whatever they want. As long as they don't attack and bother anyone else they can identify as a dragon for all I care. (as I typed this I realised there are actually people who do so so this hyperbole kind of lost its meaning I guess ).
But yet you constantly defend people in this thread who post videos made by people with the intention to invalidate and personally negatively impact the lives of people who identify as how they wish. If someone IDs as nonbinary and pansexual, you're wasting your time with a weird pretentious circle-jerk discussing the validity of people's identities
Certain members in here have even said they wouldn't refer as someone by "they" even when pointed out that singular "they" exists in most dialects of English (irony that non-native English speakers feel bold enough to correct native English-speaking "SJWs" on their language), let alone the same person just said someone can't identify as trans unless they fill a quota of procedures (which ironically is a huge transphobic slippery slope).
Stop co-signing awful opinions if you want people to stop thinking you believe these things.
We really gotta stop letting people who don't grasp the nuance of the West's discourse discuss our concepts. Literally WHAT. No, you will not call ANYONE a transvestite and you clearly need more education if you're grouping people in "levels" of transgender, transvestite, etc. A transgender person is simply someone who does NOT identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. Whatever else they do or don't do is none of your business, I'm honestly disgusted.
I agree. Gender, and the whole masculinity vs feminine thing are stupid social constructs that ruin individuality.
Everyone is human, (that should be our only label) and all our distinctions should be accepted as unique, not classified into male/female binaries.
While, yes it's true. You can choose your own gender or change it, but It's medically important to identify one's actual sex though. Even if it sounds offensive. Some people want to erase who they are completely. It might work on a social level but you really can't change chromosomes. I don't want to come off as transphobic though. I hope I'm making sense.
While, yes it's true. You can choose your own gender or change it, but It's medically important to identify one's actual sex though. Even if it sounds offensive. Some people want to erase who they are completely. It might work on a social level but you really can't change chromosomes. I don't want to come off as transphobic though. I hope I'm making sense.
Yes sex is okay and needed. I'm talking about gender, and assigning gender on material things. You don't sound transphobic, I don't even know any transgender ppl. I'm talking about for example, guys getting judged for liking something that is seen girly, and vise versa. Instead, just get rid of the whole gender binary, and all the norms.
But yet you constantly defend people in this thread who post videos made by people with the intention to invalidate and personally negatively impact the lives of people who identify as how they wish. If someone IDs as nonbinary and pansexual, you're wasting your time with a weird pretentious circle-jerk discussing the validity of people's identities
Certain members in here have even said they wouldn't refer as someone by "they" even when pointed out that singular "they" exists in most dialects of English (irony that non-native English speakers feel bold enough to correct native English-speaking "SJWs" on their language), let alone the same person just said someone can't identify as trans unless they fill a quota of procedures (which ironically is a huge transphobic slippery slope).
Stop co-signing awful opinions if you want people to stop thinking you believe these things.
This is why this discussion is so hard to be had because the mere discussion is offensive in your eyes. The mere idea to question it is "invalidating" them to you. The video that sparked this discussion was the video by Jaclyn which was the only video I agreed with and with nothing and no one else.Everything else you think "co-sign" is merely your perfection of me and what you think I must believe. Jaclyn & Arielle were not invalidating anyone in the video and I thought they were very careful in how they chose to word themselves. Questioning the labels is not telling these people that their feelings are invalid.
This is why this discussion is so hard to be had because the mere discussion is offensive in your eyes. The mere idea to question it is "invalidating" them to you. The video that sparked this discussion was the video by Jaclyn which was the only video I agreed with and with nothing and no one else.Everything else you think "co-sign" is merely your perfection of me and what you think I must believe. Jaclyn & Arielle were not invalidating anyone in the video and I thought they were very careful in how they chose to word themselves.
If two paragrahphs are too much for you in a discussion about serious topic then...
nice ad hominem there. And obviously I have never stated that I think people who identify as anything other than male or female are somehow worth less.inferior or need to be eradicated.
Just expose yourself as a transphobe. You're not even just attacking NB folks now, you're attacking thousands of trans folks. If someone identifies as female, they don't need to undergo certain procedures or medical treatments to fill your quota and metrics of IDENTITY. 
).
