[Giselle]

I am definitely in favor of affirmative action and universal healthcare. I wish we didn't need to use food stamps but unfortunately we do. And I'm not sure for what context you mean "equal protections". But I am sympathetic. And I do understand that people go through things and that some things are unforeseen.

But like what the guy in the video I posted last night said, if you were born in the projects, and you're still there at 30 years old, you didn't make the correct decisions.

[Communion]

The "bad parent" suggestion doesn't work because it ignores then how those people's kids are going to suffer the brunt of making people feel the consequences of their "choices", and then because those kids are suffering, they're just as likely to make those same mistakes re: money once they've grown up, causing now their kids to then grow up poor too, etc. It creates and excuses away generational poverty.

All it can take is one person being sickly, or one person being mentally disabled, or even just an awful set of circumstances (see - a single mother who is single and poor because she ran away from her abusive husband with her child; are we suggesting leaving an abusive husband is a "bad choice" and her poverty is her own fault?) and multiple generations of people are thrown into a cycle of poverty unless there's institutions to help them.

Rich people really want poor people to "make better decisions" yet there's so little access and resources given to poor people. Poor people literally have shorter life-spans. Poor people have barely any access to mental health care to even work through their mental illnesses. Poor people are less likely to go to hospitals and seek out care for medical injuries or pain. People's poverty is why they have such challenges that create hurdles and set them up to be in poverty for generations. You can't make equal decisions when your circumstances aren't equal. It's like people who have never been in quicksand yelling at those stuck in it and asking why they won't just pull themselves out.

[Giselle]

Originally posted by Communion

The "bad parent" suggestion doesn't work because it ignores then how those people's kids are going to suffer the brunt of making people feel the consequences of their "choices", and then because those kids are suffering, they're just as likely to make those same mistakes re: money once they've grown up, causing now their kids to then grow up poor too, etc. It creates and excuses away generational poverty.

All it can take is one person being sickly, or one person being mentally disabled, or even just an awful set of circumstances (see - a single mother who is single and poor because she ran away from her abusive husband with her child; are we suggesting leaving an abusive husband is a "bad choice" and her poverty is her own fault?) and multiple generations of people are thrown into a cycle of poverty unless there's institutions to help them.

Rich people really want poor people to "make better decisions" yet there's so little access and resources given to poor people. Poor people literally have shorter life-spans. Poor people have barely any access to mental health care to even work through their mental illnesses. Poor people are less likely to go to hospitals and seek out care for medical injuries or pain. People's poverty is why they have such challenges that create hurdles and set them up to be in poverty for generations. You can't make equal decisions when your circumstances aren't equal. It's like people who have never been in quicksand yelling at those stuck in it and asking why they won't just pull themselves out.

1. I specified several times that I was talking about able-bodied people.
2. Obviously the bolded is a special circumstance. I'm obviously not talking about people like that.
3. As for the first paragraph, I never said anyone was a bad parents. But yes, if you can't even afford bus fare, you HAVE made poor decisions whether that's in having the child or how you handled your affairs post having the child. But a poor decisions (or set of decisions, rather) WAS made.
4. Of course institutions can and should help. But poor people who sit and wait for the government to change their situation are going to remain poor forever.

[Giselle]

Anyway, this is getting repetitive. I think in most cases (obviously not talking about the disabled and special circumstance people), adulthood poverty is something you can avoid. If you manage to get in that situation, of course it will be hard to get out of, but again, not impossible. You guys think the government can just fix everything and that we shouldn't talk about personal responsibility.

Okay.

[King Maxx]

Originally posted by Giselle

I am definitely in favor of affirmative action and universal healthcare. I wish we didn't need to use food stamps but unfortunately we do. And I'm not sure for what context you mean "equal protections". But I am sympathetic. And I do understand that people go through things and that some things are unforeseen.

But like what the guy in the video I posted last night said, if you were born in the projects, and you're still there at 30 years old, you didn't make the correct decisions.

I know you don't actually disagree with these policies, your comments suggest it which is why I'm calling it out so you can get a new perspective. According to your logic, if you do better you will be better. Am I correct? We said that it isn't that simple, and you said it is.

So by that statement (at face value alone) you don't agree on affirmative action. Why? Because if a black person works hard, they'll get the job. If a person works hard, they'll get a good job and can afford their own private insurance. If a gay person works hard, there is not need for anti-discrimination laws because they are just that good of an employee. If a woman works hard, no need for equal pay laws. She'll get paid fair amount. No need for minimum wage. Because if you work so hard, you'll get a good paying job that doesn't need a minimum salary. Get why just comments can come off as insensitive to the actual issues poor and the working poor goes through. Hard work alone is not a guarantee of success and being better off. You don't think the people in rural Ohio work hard. They are not seeing the same affects of the economy as someone in the inner city of California.

And I'm a strong believer that every poor and lower-middle class American should have some form of governmental food assistance. Groceries can be pretty high on a tight budget. Food stamps are a necessity and I plan to take full advantage of it pretty soon.

[ralani]

Originally posted by Giselle

Anyway, this is getting repetitive. I think in most cases (obviously not talking about the disabled and special circumstance people), adulthood poverty is something you can avoid. If you manage to get in that situation, of course it will be hard to get out of, but again, not impossible. You guys think the government can just fix everything and that we shouldn't talk about personal responsibility.

Okay.

I agree with this.

[King Maxx]

43 million live in poverty today. Family income is lower than it was 20 years ago. Wages are stagnant. More people are going into student debt. Meanwhile the richer is getting richer and owns most of the wealth.

That's not personal responsibility. That means the system is not working for them. Only changing our laws and policies can fix that. Did Bernie not educate you guys enough this election cycle?

[Communion]

Okay but the way poverty is being talked about ignores the decades of evidence that links poverty and mental illness, the ways poverty (especially generational poverty) can be psychologically traumatic, and how the system works to keep the poor poorer and the disabled disenfranchised.

Saying that of course you don't mean the disabled isn't really saying anything when there's probably millions of poor people who are actively unwell, actively depressed, and actively dealing with mental illness, yet don't believe they are, and so they don't go get treatment, they don't go to a therapist, they don't seek counseling or help, so they're not on file as being unwell. It's literally a privilege of the wealthy to get to recognize their mental or physical disabilities. There are poor people who will break bones working and just hope it heals, or have early signs of a heart attack and just ignore it because they don't have the luxury to deal with it. The country with the most billionaires shouldn't have people who kill themselves due to thinking they're too poor to live or avoiding hospitals due to costs. The psychological harm and trauma of poverty on people is something it feels the well-off just don't get. To be so poor is traumatic, to be so poor for so long is traumatic, and when our society is set up to put those people in poverty, it is acting out harm onto these people. The scales aren't balanced.

This is getting repetitive so there's no point to continue it, but I will say - it very much reads like people genuinely believe a clear majority of those in poverty are just lazy, and that's an... awful view to have. Of course there are some who are choosing to use the system, but those are very far between and few, and I have to question the intentions of those who want to uproot and interrogate the whole system for a few outliers, very possibly ruining the lives of (and inflicting more trauma onto) people who fall on axes that are burdening and unfair. There's already so much money wasted in the US from the national defense budget to other programs. Poor people who are so poor they're afraid to go to the hospital due to costs shouldn't be your priority.

[King Maxx]

Let me say this though. I would rather spend my coins on food stamps for the "lazy" than keeping those 90 prisoners in that damn expensive prison.

[Giselle]

I never said the system wasn't flawed. I never said that it isn't hard (or harder) for some people. But EYE believe that with hard work and responsible decisions, anyone can live a self-sufficient life. This is my belief. You have yours, I have mine.

[Orpheus]

When can we expect the top surrogates to begin hitting the campaign trail? After the Olympics?

I can only imagine Michelle and Hillary campaigning together.

[King Maxx]

Originally posted by Giselle

I never said the system wasn't flawed. I never said that it isn't hard (or harder) for some people. But EYE believe that with hard work and responsible decisions, anyone can live a self-sufficient life. This is my belief. You have yours, I have mine.

And on that note. Let's end this convo.

Originally posted by Orpheus

When can we expect the top surrogates to begin hitting the campaign trail? After the Olympics?

I can only imagine Michelle and Hillary campaigning together.

Well Hillary and Biden are campaigning together on Monday in PA.

Obama will be campaigning every single day in October. His schedule is completely clear unless something drastic happens, like a terrorist attack, etc.

I think all the others will start that month as well.

[Aden]

Just bought a set of buttons from Hillary's campaign store and donated an additional $5 to her campaign.

[LuLuDrops]

Time Magazine cover

[hairofglory]

Lmao is surrogate the new buzz word now to distract from the Hillary propaganda artists that control the media? The media is so transparent throwing these words around but they're always three steps behind Trump. This election is interesting. Am excited for What Trump has in plan to control the media dishonesty once he is elected. I think we could agree even before this election happened that journalism has lost all integrity lately.

[RihRihGirrrl]

Originally posted by hairofglory

Lmao is surrogate the new buzz word now to distract from the Hillary propaganda artists that control the media? The media is so transparent throwing these words around but they're always three steps behind Trump. This election is interesting. Am excited for What Trump has in plan to control the media dishonesty once he is elected. I think we could agree even before this election happened that journalism has lost all integrity lately.

lol did you just start watching politics?! Anyone who is deployed by the campaign to speak on behalf of the campaign is called a surrogate. It's not a new word lol

[Orpheus]

This is just so cringeworthy. Worse than the whole birther movement

Originally posted by RihRihGirrrl

lol did you just start watching politics?! Anyone who is deployed by the campaign to speak on behalf of the campaign is called a surrogate. It's not a new word lol

I mean...it's just...laughable tbh.

[@michael]

Originally posted by hairofglory

Am excited for What Trump has in plan to control the media dishonesty once he is elected.

How authoritarian of you.

[RatedG²]

Trump Campaign staffer pulled gun on other staffers. Campaign did not address

[hairofglory]

Originally posted by @michael

How authoritarian of you.

There is clearly an industry failure in the media and when there is industry failure the government can step in. Nothing new. Don't democrats love government intervention?