| |
Discussion: U.S. Election 2016: Primary Season
Member Since: 2/2/2014
Posts: 6,697
|
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 9/17/2011
Posts: 9,051
|
lmaoooo at Ted Cruz's faux outrage literally calling Trump a coward in one breath for going after his wife but not even being able to say he won't support Trump if he's the nominee in the very next breath lol such a joke
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramcoro
Why are there literally no polls for this Saturday?  |
All 3 on Saturday are caucuses, and we rarely get polls for them because they are so unreliable.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Bey Admired
The thing is, Hillary fans are rational. They would vote for Bernie over Trump any day of the week. Do you know why? Because Hillary fans are concerned with more than just increasing the minimum wage and taxing Wall Street. They actually care about equality. They care about women's rights. They care about immigrants and their right to citizenship. They care about so many issues. Whereas, as exemplified by many Bernie fans saying they would vote for Trump over Hillary, they only seem to care about a couple of economic issues. They obviously don't care about racism, bigotry, women's rights, immigrant rights, and so many other issues if they would vote for Trump over Hillary.
Listen, don't tell me you're a progressive then say you're going to vote for Trump. No, you must have very liberal economic and fiscal views, but have extremely right wing views concerning everything else.
Don't tell me you care about a woman's right to choose what she does with her body, and then say you're going to vote for Trump. Don't tell me you give a **** about immigrants and their families, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell you me you care about racial equality and systemic racism, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you care about Gay rights, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you think Islamophobia is wrong, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me that you don't want another war, and then vote for Trump. Don't tell me you want free education, and then vote for Trump.
I have absolutely NO respect for anyone who is voting for Trump. NONE. As far as I'm concerned, voting for Trump is illustrating your compliance and agreement with the views expressed by Trump. It actually says more about you than it does about him.
The idea that you can go from someone who is as diplomatic, loving, caring, and deeply sensitive to foreign issues as Bernie Sanders; to someone the complete opposite, is unequivocally obscene and nonsensical. It shows that you only care about money, nothing else. That's why Hillary's accusation that Bernie is a one issue candidate is ringing more true by the day, especially where his fans are concerned.
Don't tell me you're not a xenophobic, racist, fascist, and morally corrupt person, but then vote for Trump.
This is why Bernie does better in the national polls. Because so many of them care about ONE thing. Whereas, Hillary supporters care about so much more, hence they say they would vote for Bernie. It's not that hard to understand. |
This post is golden. 
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Bey Admired
The thing is, Hillary fans are rational. They would vote for Bernie over Trump any day of the week. Do you know why? Because Hillary fans are concerned with more than just increasing the minimum wage and taxing Wall Street. They actually care about equality. They care about women's rights. They care about immigrants and their right to citizenship. They care about so many issues. Whereas, as exemplified by many Bernie fans saying they would vote for Trump over Hillary, they only seem to care about a couple of economic issues. They obviously don't care about racism, bigotry, women's rights, immigrant rights, and so many other issues if they would vote for Trump over Hillary.
Listen, don't tell me you're a progressive then say you're going to vote for Trump. No, you must have very liberal economic and fiscal views, but have extremely right wing views concerning everything else.
Don't tell me you care about a woman's right to choose what she does with her body, and then say you're going to vote for Trump. Don't tell me you give a **** about immigrants and their families, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell you me you care about racial equality and systemic racism, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you care about Gay rights, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you think Islamophobia is wrong, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me that you don't want another war, and then vote for Trump. Don't tell me you want free education, and then vote for Trump.
I have absolutely NO respect for anyone who is voting for Trump. NONE. As far as I'm concerned, voting for Trump is illustrating your compliance and agreement with the views expressed by Trump. It actually says more about you than it does about him.
The idea that you can go from someone who is as diplomatic, loving, caring, and deeply sensitive to foreign issues as Bernie Sanders; to someone the complete opposite, is unequivocally obscene and nonsensical. It shows that you only care about money, nothing else. That's why Hillary's accusation that Bernie is a one issue candidate is ringing more true by the day, especially where his fans are concerned.
Don't tell me you're not a xenophobic, racist, fascist, and morally corrupt person, but then vote for Trump.
This is why Bernie does better in the national polls. Because so many of them care about ONE thing. Whereas, Hillary supporters care about so much more, hence they say they would vote for Bernie. It's not that hard to understand. |
Anyone voting for Trump has no respect for me, this country, and the citizens in it, and I don't want to be personally associated with people like them.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Matteo
While i agree with some of what you said. Free College is absolutely realistic, just look at northern european countries like Finland, they have absolutely no tuition fees, in fact for certain stages and under certain conditions they get paid to study. And this includes everything from children daycare to higher academic degrees.
Of course the situation is completely different than in the states, especially tax wise, but it isn't completely unrealistic.
|
Free college is an unrealistic goal in the United States with the fact that we have a conservative, Republican-led Congress. It may happen one day, but the United States has never been one to implement change radically. If a Hillary fan states that free college tuition is unrealistic, that's typically the rationale. I think debt-free tuition and free community college is a great start towards more affordable college. There are liberal democrats that aren't entirely for free tuition. I'm one of them, honestly. I wouldn't have had the drive in high school to work for my grades and such if tuition were free nationwide. So, I have reservations towards that kind of jump. So, I do see that policy position as unrealistic as of now because it will be a while before it's a more accepted idea. Also, Republicans absolutely deplore the idea and, love it or hate it, you HAVE to work alongside Republicans to get stuff done.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Not only would free college tuition increase taxes on all classes, it would drastically devalue a degree. The only way I can see that being made up would to make the educational requirements super harder and lengthen time spent (so 4 year college to 6-8 for Bachelors?) I honestly don't see this ever being approved.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 5/8/2012
Posts: 6,632
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Bey Admired
The thing is, Hillary fans are rational. They would vote for Bernie over Trump any day of the week. Do you know why? Because Hillary fans are concerned with more than just increasing the minimum wage and taxing Wall Street. They actually care about equality. They care about women's rights. They care about immigrants and their right to citizenship. They care about so many issues. Whereas, as exemplified by many Bernie fans saying they would vote for Trump over Hillary, they only seem to care about a couple of economic issues. They obviously don't care about racism, bigotry, women's rights, immigrant rights, and so many other issues if they would vote for Trump over Hillary.
Listen, don't tell me you're a progressive then say you're going to vote for Trump. No, you must have very liberal economic and fiscal views, but have extremely right wing views concerning everything else.
Don't tell me you care about a woman's right to choose what she does with her body, and then say you're going to vote for Trump. Don't tell me you give a **** about immigrants and their families, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell you me you care about racial equality and systemic racism, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you care about Gay rights, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me you think Islamophobia is wrong, and then say you're voting for Trump. Don't tell me that you don't want another war, and then vote for Trump. Don't tell me you want free education, and then vote for Trump.
I have absolutely NO respect for anyone who is voting for Trump. NONE. As far as I'm concerned, voting for Trump is illustrating your compliance and agreement with the views expressed by Trump. It actually says more about you than it does about him.
The idea that you can go from someone who is as diplomatic, loving, caring, and deeply sensitive to foreign issues as Bernie Sanders; to someone the complete opposite, is unequivocally obscene and nonsensical. It shows that you only care about money, nothing else. That's why Hillary's accusation that Bernie is a one issue candidate is ringing more true by the day, especially where his fans are concerned.
Don't tell me you're not a xenophobic, racist, fascist, and morally corrupt person, but then vote for Trump.
This is why Bernie does better in the national polls. Because so many of them care about ONE thing. Whereas, Hillary supporters care about so much more, hence they say they would vote for Bernie. It's not that hard to understand. |
The Pro Sanders/Trump coalition is an outspoken minority. They aren't representative of his supporters as whole. 
Quote:
|
In an NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey conducted by Hart Research Associates this month, 7% of Sanders voters said they could see themselves supporting Trump. Some 66% said the same for Clinton
|
Quote:
|
Ironically, in 2008 it was Clinton supporters vowing to stay home—or vote for John McCain—if Obama became the nominee. At the time, that same HuffPo columnist warned that “balkanized Democrats could give the White House to John McCain.” That May, primary exit polls found less than half of Hillary Clinton’s supporters in Indiana and North Carolina saying they’d consider voting for Obama in the general election. Even in early July, after Obama had secured the nomination, only 54 percent of Clinton backers said they planned to vote for him.
|
Quote:
|
but at the end of the day nine out of 10 Democrats supported Obama in an election that featured the highest turnout in 40 years.
|
http://www.thenation.com/article/rel...s-the-nominee/
At the end of the day, most Sanders supporters will swallow their pride and vote against Trump or not vote at all.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
Not only would free college tuition increase taxes on all classes, it would drastically devalue a degree. The only way I can see that being made up would to make the educational requirements super harder and lengthen time spent (so 4 year college to 6-8 for Bachelors?) I honestly don't see this ever being approved.
|
Exactly. Undergraduate degrees are already not a guaranteed way to get a job. Making it entirely free would just saturate the entire college student population and I don't think we have the resources (professors, for instance) to be able to handle that well. My university would heavily be impacted by this because most of our funding comes from student tuition. We also have very low student retention rate, so our lower tuition rate and better scholarship programs is a way we actually attract many students. If every public university nearby were free... We would lose that appeal and less students would be coming here and we would be drastically hit. Honestly, the whole public tuition issue is thought of too simply. We can't just think "Everyone deserves college for free, so let's make it happen." There are a lot of issues and consequences that could arise from that, and I don't think making a radical change that could negatively impact the schools themselves is a wise decision.
Also, we should work to try to make it so that there are jobs for people who don't want to go to college. Quite frankly, not everyone is suited to go to college. They're not interested in learning, they sleep through class, they don't take their classes seriously, etc. I know plenty of people like that and I think it's just a result from the fact that our country makes it so college is essential to have any semblance of success, I think that's the bigger issue, in my opinion. I'm all for education, but we should be focusing on our secondary education system (which is incredibly flawed) and allowing people access to skills-based education if they want it (like at community colleges), but if they want a full on academic undergraduate degree, then that's a different story. We need to be aware of the issue, but a sudden overhaul is just too much, too fast.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
Exactly. Undergraduate degrees are already not a guaranteed way to get a job. Making it entirely free would just saturate the entire college student population and I don't think we have the resources (professors, for instance) to be able to handle that well. My university would heavily be impacted by this because most of our funding comes from student tuition. We also have very low student retention rate, so our lower tuition rate and better scholarship programs is a way we actually attract many students. If every public university nearby were free... We would lose that appeal and less students would be coming here and we would be drastically hit. Honestly, the whole public tuition issue is thought of too simply. We can't just think "Everyone deserves college for free, so let's make it happen." There are a lot of issues and consequences that could arise from that, and I don't think making a radical change that could negatively impact the schools themselves is a wise decision.
Also, we should work to try to make it so that there are jobs for people who don't want to go to college. Quite frankly, not everyone is suited to go to college. They're not interested in learning, they sleep through class, they don't take their classes seriously, etc. I know plenty of people like that and I think it's just a result from the fact that our country makes it so college is essential to have any semblance of success, I think that's the bigger issue, in my opinion. I'm all for education, but we should be focusing on our secondary education system (which is incredibly flawed) and allowing people access to skills-based education if they want it (like at community colleges), but if they want a full on academic undergraduate degree, then that's a different story. We need to be aware of the issue, but a sudden overhaul is just too much, too fast.
|
Perfectly said. But Bernie's argument is that the change won't be sudden and we need a political revolution to make it happen. What he does not understand is that he only has 4 years to show any sign of that happening or he won't get a 2nd term (not that that is even guaranteed with his age). That could hurt the Democrats in 2020. And god forbid he gets a 2nd term and we still don't have free college or somehow we do and it's a disaster. 2024 would a Republican blowout. Hillary's old self would be cackling all the way to her grave.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/20/2012
Posts: 27,830
|
There is literally no evidence of degrees becoming devalued if they're free. People still have to meet the admission requirements.
And Hillary's debt-free tuition plan is completely flawed.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/20/2012
Posts: 27,830
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
Perfectly said. But Bernie's argument is that the change won't be sudden and we need a political revolution to make it happen. What he does not understand is that he only has 4 years to show any sign of that happening or he won't get a 2nd term (not that that is even guaranteed with his age). That could hurt the Democrats in 2020. And god forbid he gets a 2nd term and we still don't have free college or somehow we do and it's a disaster. 2024 would a Republican blowout. Hillary's old self would be cackling all the way to her grave. |
Obama had 8 years and didn't get most of his plans passed yet Democrats love him, but okay.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
There is literally no evidence of degrees becoming devalued if they're free. People still have to meet the admission requirements.
And Hillary's debt-free tuition plan is completely flawed.
|
We just said this. The admission requirements are already difficult for a lot of people. If college is free, the admission requirements will have to increase and we already can't afford that. Like Bloo said, we need to focus on secondary education before we can see this being an option.
And I really don't see where we would get the money to fund every public school in America, and don't tell be Wall Street because that's a lie. We already have many public schools in jeopardy of closing, especially HBCUs.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/21/2012
Posts: 28,099
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
Obama had 8 years and didn't get most of his plans passed yet Democrats love him, but okay.
|
But Bernie is a single-issue candidate. If he can't succeed with that one, then he's screwed. Americans have short attention span and all those big plans don't get done, but if you do a few great things then the other stuff are forgotten. Bernie can't do that. It's give us free college, get rid of Citizens United, and universal healthcare or you failed. That's literally his whole campaign has been about and has drove voters to vote for him.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/20/2012
Posts: 27,830
|
Quote:
Originally posted by King Maxx
We just said this. The admission requirements are already difficult for a lot of people. If college is free, the admission requirements will have to increase and we already can't afford that. Like Bloo said, we need to focus on secondary education before we can see this being an option.
And I really don't see where we would get the money to fund every public school in America, and don't tell be Wall Street because that's a lie. We already have many public schools in jeopardy of closing, especially HBCUs.
|
Who says requirements need to increase? Free college leads to more people having access, which leads to more competition and people trying harder in high school. The college system is flawed but that doesn't mean we can't give access to everyone.
The easiest way to get more funding for education is by taking some from the military, but I know a lot of people aren't here for that.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 7/13/2010
Posts: 11,566
|
Bloo clocking the educaiton argument. Couldn't have said it better myself.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 14,942
|
Free tuition would not work, especially with our growing population. And the people wouldn't be willing to pay taxes for such a measure. What some people are more concerned about is college debt and that's what we need to focus on handling. The most important factor for employers now is skill and training. Many places need people who have at least some training and a good amount of experience. I agree with Bloo. We need to push for more technical training. Our two party government will never come together to consider passing legislation for 100% free tuition. It's never going to happen. We need to put more value towards getting good grades which could allow for breaks in tuition. Maybe government assisted tuition matching and more scholarship programs are needed.
|
|
|
|
ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 11/14/2008
Posts: 24,988
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
There is literally no evidence of degrees becoming devalued if they're free. People still have to meet the admission requirements.
And Hillary's debt-free tuition plan is completely flawed.
|
How is her debt-free tuition plan flawed? It's centered around lowered federal interest rates and a percentage of your monthly paycheck to pay back what you borrow. You don't pay more than what you can afford. You're still making a financial contribution in paying back the money loaned to you for that degree. If after 20 years you aren't done, you're absolved of that debt. I don't mind paying back for something I had to work for, but to do so my entire life? That's where I draw the line and then interest rates being threw the rough....complete ripoffs. Absolving the remaining balance of tuition after 20 years worth of payments is more feasible than free tuition for millions. Plus, that idea is likelier to have bipartisan appeal than free tuition for all.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/6/2015
Posts: 3,624
|
Did you guys hear that there is a petition out that was signed by over 100,000 people requesting an investigation of the Arizona Primary? I'm so sick of these Bernie supporters..... They have to make everything so damn difficult and I'm sick of it. I cannot wait until Bernie is out of this race TBH. He's become such a nuisance and an unnecessary part of the race.
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
There is literally no evidence of degrees becoming devalued if they're free.
|
Yes there is... It's this simply concept called inflation. When there is too much of one thing, then it is less valuable. There's a reason more students go instantly for their Master's degree to try to set them apart and increase their chances of getting a job.
Quote:
|
And Hillary's debt-free tuition plan is completely flawed.
|
Please do explain to me how it's flawed? It's less ambitious and more achievable than Bernie's plan, so if it's flawed then how is Bernie's flaw-free?
Marvin, not trying to be rude, but you never seem to provide any detail or explanation for your arguments... It's very unconvincing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
