[swissman]

Originally posted by Red Hot Moon

Now, Swissman, you have to make a decision. Are you praising Beyonce's Behaviour as a faithful wife who limits her sexuality to her husband (as religion and society have told women for centuries) or are you claiming that she actually promotes liberation of female's sexuality? And you contradict yourself even more for portraying Shakira and Rihanna the way you just did. All 3 artists do the same thing, but only one claims she is a feminist. By labelling herself like that she probably hopes to get away with her sexy image/lyrics/performances while Artists like Miley or Rihanna get a lot of heat.

Can a woman not be faithful to someone and be sexually liberated? She can. That's the thing. Being a faithful wife doesn't mean wearing long skirts and never appearing sexually to others. I also never praised her role as a faithful wife, I merely said she has a song about sex with her husband (which isn't really promiscuous).

There is a huge difference between the way that Beyonce and Rihanna/Shakira were portrayed in that video. Aside from that video, all three women celebrate their sexuality and I have no problem with that. In case you missed it, I was referring to the Can't Remember to Forget You video, not their careers as a whole. In this video both stars touch each other for the camera, and exploit their sexuality in a way that is all together different than Beyoncé re-imagining a fantasy she has with her husband. The clear difference is that Rih/Shak are not lesbians, nor even great friends so the setup is entirely false, forced and for attention. Beyoncé is married to Jay-Z, so her doing burlesque for him has an element of reality to it and so works for her story. As for Miley, she was just twerking for the attention not to show that she loves herself or Robin or whatever.

So yes I am arguing that Beyonce "promotes liberation of female's sexuality". I mean how many comments have been written saying "Beyoncé is in her 30s, she needs to stop this" or comments about how mothers should not act this way. This is society telling a woman how she should act or dress. Beyoncé doesn't care. She promotes women being themselves.

[Schoolin' Life]

Originally posted by Red Hot Moon

You don't get sarcasm, do you? What you think you know about prostitution is not the whole picture. Everyone has their own story and reason. I could write an even longer essay about that, but it wouldn't help in your case. Who gave you the right to divide females into sexy (feminine) and ugly manly (butch, short-haired) ones? You're a misogynist by doing so. I don't think that the woman who invented feminism according to the hive would approve that. But thanks anyways for teaching me about feminism. I must have missed a lot in all of those Gender/Philosophy classes I took in those 5 years at University

First of all I said "has a long story of abuse" not that this is the only way of prostitution. I know that for centuries young girls were being sold to red latterns districts and still are. I'm also aware that sometimes girls think this is nice way to get new pair of jeans but I just wanted to point out how narrowminded was your conclusion that prostitute=feminist according to us who tell owning your sexuality is example of such.

And again, this is your misogynistic conclysion that woman who dresses manly is ugly. Nothing like this was posted by me. Again I just pointed out holes in the ways of thinking of people criticising skimpy clothes because "it myst be for the pleasure of men hence not feminstic". At the same time you don't see havoc when woman compromise her look and way of presenting herself to be more like a man. This is not about music/acting industry. It's about some women in corporations, politics etc. And this is worse, it's like admitting that you feel you need to be like a man can have success and being taken seriously.

[swissman]

Originally posted by Drayb

How you contradict yoursefl. Did you say previously it's not for one woman to judge another's feministic sexuality yet you just did that to Rihanna and Shakira. Shakes head. Carry on.

I understand the hypocrisy in calling for the halt of judgment on one, yet judging others. But do you understand the difference between these two examples?

Beyoncé is a straight women who enjoys sex and so celebrates it by including it in her music videos, performances, photoshoots etc. Rihanna and Shakira (remember I'm only referring to this one video) are straight women who enjoy sex and celebrate it. Are either of them lesbians or even bi-sexual? They may be, but considering how open to sexuality they are, I doubt this would be a secret. So when they appear in a video feigning lesbianism, touching each other and rolling around together, it's obviously something forced. Something forced means there is an effort to portray what is not already there, which means that what is portrayed is being used for a specific purpose and viola you have the definition of exploitation.


Basically:
Beyonce: Was she pretending that she has sex with her husband, the father of her child?
Rihanna and Shakira: Were they pretending to be lesbians or are they really a lesbian couple?

Which one is exploiting sexuality?

[Schoolin' Life]

Oh and Red, don't throw 5 years of Uni at me. I had 5 years of studying IT on military university. Been there done that with male centered envoirment where me & my few female fellows were not even 1% of year total and my look was getting me "which friend programmed it for you darling" responses

[Pinter]

Originally posted by swissman

You're obviously mixing your own views on modesty and morality into the definition of feminist and you really should not do that. Whatever you feel a woman is when she sleeps with multiple partners does not give you the right to say that it is universally wrong. It is wrong for you, but not or another woman. Acting ****ty does not have to be about the man. Are you forgetting that it's the woman who is also involved. Does she not as well get pleasure from sex?

To you, if a woman is promiscuous she is not a good feminist ie. showing that women should be treated as less than men.
Does this mean that a promiscuous man implies that men should be treated less than women? No.

Lastly, Beyoncé celebrates her body. She does not exploit it. Men may find her attractive but it is not what sells her records. Have you forgotten to whom she sings? Are her fans primarily straight or gay men? There is a difference between Beyoncé celebrating sex with her husband in Partition and Shakira and Rihanna pretending to be lesbians for the camera. One celebrates and the other clearly exploits.

Dude, you seem very lost here.

Beyonce is exploiting her sex appeal, its no secret, your assumption about her 'celebrating her body' is totally wrong. Celebrating your body isn't about dancing ****ty to tease man/woman/gay around the world for commercial use, celebrating your own body isn't about posting edited picture of your figure on Instagram just because you feel insecure about your 'imperfect' figure.

You're twisting it all wrong. You give permission to bey to shake her booty in front of camera because her fans are gay?

Bey, Rihanna, and Shakira did the damn same thing, they exploit sex for commercial use, therefore, they're all not feminists, their acts are not feminism.

This whole 'celebrating your body' issue is giving feminism a wrong value, no matter how hard you try to prove that being slu-tty isn't slu-tty, it will always be classified as slu-tty. Therefore, acting ****ty, or exploit your sexuality in front of media just will degrade woman values, it will only make women to be a matter of 'object' in this society.

The one example of feminism, is about getting woman out there to have equal right to rule the country, to lead in society, not getting woman out there to act slu-tty

[Schoolin' Life]

Is it assumption when Beyoncé herself said that? Some of you need to see self-titled video commentaries

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by Prometheus.

She doesn't understand that if you don't take your clothes off, you will flounder (with exceptions).

The feminist thing to do (and the thing to do if you have integrity) in that particular situation is to keep your clothes on, flounder, and gain a small devoted fanbase which you can grow into a larger fanbase who will appreciate you no matter what you do.

Rather than caving into the pressure from your managers/agents/label or whatever, taking your clothes off the way they want you to, pretending it was your idea and creating a half-assed explanation of how doing so is fitting with things you have said previously.

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by swissman

I feel sorry for people who don't understand feminism and think that photoshop or ****tiness means you aren't for the equality of the sexes.

I feel sorry for people who don't understand the cognitive dissonance involved in a feminist photoshopping her pics to look more sexy.

And if you don't understand it, then you probably need me to tell you what cognitive dissonance is in the first place, so here you go:

noun, Psychology
1.
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

It is absolutely contradictory for someone who wants to be viewed as a feminist icon to personally ensure that a picture of herself is airbrushed. Whether it is Beyonce, Oprah, Hilary Clinton, the Virgin Mary or your mom.

Now, I'm going to stop there and NOT connect that statement with any judgement of Beyonce and without saying that it means she can't be a feminist or whatever.

I am ONLY making the point that the two are contradictory while still allowing for the fact that Beyonce can be called a feminist.

And if you still feel the need to argue that point, then you're exposing yourself as not knowing what you're talking about. Because it cannot be argued that the two are contradictory.

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by Schoolin' Life

Is it assumption when Beyoncé herself said that? Some of you need to see self-titled video commentaries

It constantly amazes me that the Hive thinks that I am going to subject myself to the material of an artist I cannot stand.

[Schoolin' Life]

way of dressing does not make you ****, ***** or whatev Women who pose for art studies are neked for hours before many eyes, are they ****s? Can they not be feminists? Are Greenpeace female activists who flaunt their titties with activist signs are objectifying themselves and cannot be feminists? Now, can a woman who gives bj (that's by many considered degrading for women and *****ish) on private be a feminist? Or does she loose the right to call herself one only if she talks about it in public?

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by Schoolin' Life

Again I just pointed out holes in the ways of thinking of people criticising skimpy clothes because "it myst be for the pleasure of men hence not feminstic". .

It's not about whether the clothes are skimpy in and of itself. That's such a simplistic view. It's about what exactly the skimpy clothes look like. In what situation they are being worn. What the wearer is doing at the time. How she is doing it. What she is saying. And why all of those things are coming together in the way they do.

If all of that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, I'm going to call the person out for being trashy. Such as Beyonce a few times, Miley at the VMAs, Katy with the IKAG song/video, etc.

You can take your clothes off or without me criticizing it. I don't criticize Rihanna often, certainly not the S&M video. P!nk has taken her clothes off for nude photos and in the NK video but it was tasteful so I had no problem with it. Context is everything.

Originally posted by swissman

Basically:
Beyonce: Was she pretending that she has sex with her husband, the father of her child?
Rihanna and Shakira: Were they pretending to be lesbians or are they really a lesbian couple?

Which one is exploiting sexuality?

Yes, the Rih/Shak song was awful and trashy. Haven't seen the video you're talking about, but I would not be bothered by her and Jay having sex in a video. But Beyonce has had random performances I've seen bits of here and there, and even entire performances I've seen at awards shows while waiting for better performers to take the stage, and those have been every bit as trashy and ridiculous, IMO.

So while there's a difference between those 2 specific vids you are comparing, let's not act like Beyonce as a whole is just above that kind of CRTFY crap.

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by Schoolin' Life

Women who pose for art studies are neked for hours before many eyes, are they ****s? Can they not be feminists?

Those women are doing it for a purpose, the people in the room looking at her are not being like OMG TITTIES and rushing off to masturbate. Were that same woman to do the same thing (take off her clothes and stand there) in a strip club, then yes, it would then be an issue. Context.

Originally posted by Schoolin' Life

Are Greenpeace female activists who flaunt their titties with activist signs are objectifying themselves and cannot be feminists?

Are they participating in activism for women, i.e. an anti-rape event or an anti-sloot-shaming event? If so, take your titties out, girl!

Are they participating in activism for something like animals or the environment? Then leave your titties in your shirt, they have nothing to do with what is going on around them. Context.

Originally posted by Schoolin' Life

Now, can a woman who gives bj (that's by many considered degrading for women and *****ish) on private be a feminist?

Blow all the people you want if it's private. But don't go onstage in front of people and blow someone for their entertainment, that would be different. Context.

[OprahIsBlack]

And in a given situation if someone does something I think is sketchy, I'm not necessarily going to think of them as an embarrassment to women or a not-feminist, I'm just going to think of them as stupid and/or trashy.

I'm not saying Beyonce is not A feminist, I'm saying that at times, she has behaved in ways that are too stupid and/or trashy for her brand of feminism to be untouchable from criticism.

[Schoolin' Life]

I enjoy Partition and I'm not masturbating while watching it so sorry if I think she's not doing it for unknown men who go to her concert like for a peep-show but to show woman you can be sexy for your man and it's not a bad thing or something to be ashamed of

Here, context.

[Schoolin' Life]

Originally posted by OprahIsBlack

Blow all the people you want if it's private. But don't go onstage in front of people and blow someone for their entertainment, that would be different. Context.

Well I never saw Beyoncé releasing a sex tape so what's the problem.

It constantly amazes me that the Hive thinks that I am going to subject myself to the material of an artist I cannot stand.

I was talking to Pinter, so why are you responding like I pinned you personally?

But if you're not interested in artist message and the context they are giving then stay away from imputing your own lacking understating on others who actually care about what the artist is trying to convey.

[swissman]

Originally posted by Pinter

The one example of feminism, is about getting woman out there to have equal right to rule the country, to lead in society, not getting woman out there to act slu-tty

Of course feminism is not only ere so that women can act ****ty without being called names, being beaten or feeling shamed, but it is an important part of it even if there are bigger issues.

[swissman]

Originally posted by OprahIsBlack

I feel sorry for people who don't understand the cognitive dissonance involved in a feminist photoshopping her pics to look more sexy.

And if you don't understand it, then you probably need me to tell you what cognitive dissonance is in the first place, so here you go:

It is absolutely contradictory for someone who wants to be viewed as a feminist icon to personally ensure that a picture of herself is airbrushed. Whether it is Beyonce, Oprah, Hilary Clinton, the Virgin Mary or your mom.

Now, I'm going to stop there and NOT connect that statement with any judgement of Beyonce and without saying that it means she can't be a feminist or whatever.

I am ONLY making the point that the two are contradictory while still allowing for the fact that Beyonce can be called a feminist.

And if you still feel the need to argue that point, then you're exposing yourself as not knowing what you're talking about. Because it cannot be argued that the two are contradictory.

Well I guess you just proved that Beyoncé is a human. She is feminist with feelings, insecurities and issues of her own to deal with and is not above society's pressures. But there is no cognitive dissonance in photoshopping your pictures and being a feminist. The issues are different ones.

There is cognitive dissonance in saying "Always absolutely love yourself for who you are" and photoshopping a picture, but not for believing in the social, economic and political equality of the sexes and photoshopping a picture.

[swissman]

Originally posted by OprahIsBlack

Yes, the Rih/Shak song was awful and trashy. Haven't seen the video you're talking about, but I would not be bothered by her and Jay having sex in a video. But Beyonce has had random performances I've seen bits of here and there, and even entire performances I've seen at awards shows while waiting for better performers to take the stage, and those have been every bit as trashy and ridiculous, IMO.

So while there's a difference between those 2 specific vids you are comparing, let's not act like Beyonce as a whole is just above that kind of CRTFY crap.

lol at "better performers to take the stage". Who are these people you mention? Anyway, trashy and ridiculous don't equal antifeminist. It equals trashy and ridiculous.

[Mr. Loco]

Women keep talking about how much they want equality, but yet they keep expecting not to be forced to serve in the army or for men to pay their dinners at dates...

[OprahIsBlack]

Originally posted by swissman

Well I guess you just proved that Beyoncé is a human. She is feminist with feelings, insecurities and issues of her own to deal with and is not above society's pressures. But there is no cognitive dissonance in photoshopping your pictures and being a feminist. The issues are different ones.

There is cognitive dissonance in saying "Always absolutely love yourself for who you are" and photoshopping a picture, but not for believing in the social, economic and political equality of the sexes and photoshopping a picture.

An ideal version of feminism would include the message "always absolutely love yourself for who you are" though. So you just proved she's not the ideal feminist.