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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Florges
Is loveless even an atheist?
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no, and neither is fabbriche
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,674
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
no, and neither is fabbriche
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Then why are they even in here 
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Florges
Then why are they even in here |
It's ok they're here, we can have discussion with religious people I think 
What sucks is that loveless asks a lot of questions but never answers the one I ask him 
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
It's ok they're here, we can have discussion with religious people I think
What sucks is that loveless asks a lot of questions but never answers the one I ask him |
this 
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Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
No society secular or religious has come to those conclusions so I'm not sure what's your point. Root your arguments in reality please.
Can you explain to me how religion taught you homophobia is wrong please ?
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But isn't this exactly what atheism concludes?
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about societies, which are just a group of people who abide by somebody else's idea of morality. I'm talking about morality itself. If you believe that morality is subjective, then like with attraction or taste, morality is and should be determined by each individual. If morality is subjective than somebody who believes pedophilia and rape are morally right should be looked at and treated the exact same way as somebody who doesn't, as both would be right, and one wouldn't be more right than the other. Isn't this what a true atheistic society looks like?. No order, no structure, no rules. Everybody does what they believe is right. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
Can you explain to me how religion taught you homophobia is wrong please ?
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If you believe in a Creator, then you believe in a moral law giver. You believe that there are some things that are absolutely right and there are some things that are absolutely wrong, and that God, or the Creator, sets that standard. So I believe homophobia-- that is, treating and judging homosexuals as second class citizen, like how black people were treated in the past--i.e., not allowing them in your business, not sitting next to them, not acknowledging that they're people too, etc.-- is wrong because my God has instructed us to love everybody including our enemies (not saying homosexuals are my enemies, just pointing out how if I'm supposed to love my enemies, then how much more am I expected to love homosexuals, who are not my enemies).
But this isn't about my beliefs. Somebody can resurrect the Christian thread if they want to talk about Christianity. This is about Atheism/Agnosticism. I'm genuinely interested in what and how you guys think, and there is no judgment here (believe it or not). I'm not trying to convince you to accept my beliefs or that your beliefs are wrong, I'm just simply presenting evidence as I see it and hoping for your perspective on it. To even enlighten me if possible on your worldview.
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Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
loveless stop being a religious apologist and trying to come for atheism with your weak hypocritical arguments, yet ignoring the fact your "absolute morally correct god" thinks that murdering your own children for not listening to their parents is morally correct thing to do.
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I'm not understanding why you're so defensive. Even if Christianity is false, how does that answer any of the questions posted.  .
Quote:
Originally posted by Florges
Is loveless even an atheist?
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No, which is why I'm doing my best to keep the topic on Atheism and ignoring any attempts to talk about Christianity, the Bible, Muslims, etc. 
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
But isn't this exactly what atheism concludes?
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about societies, which are just a group of people who abide by somebody else's idea of morality. I'm talking about morality itself. If you believe that morality is subjective, then like with attraction or taste, morality is and should be determined by each individual. If morality is subjective than somebody who believes pedophilia and rape are morally right should be looked at and treated the exact same way as somebody who doesn't, as both would be right, and one wouldn't be more right than the other. Isn't this what a true atheistic society looks like?. No order, no structure, no rules. Everybody does what they believe is right. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
If you believe in a Creator, then you believe in a moral law giver. You believe that there are some things that are absolutely right and there are some things that are absolutely wrong, and that God, or the Creator, sets that standard. So I believe homophobia-- that is, treating and judging homosexuals as second class citizen, like how black people were treated in the past--i.e., not allowing them in your business, not sitting next to them, not acknowledging that they're people too, etc.-- is wrong because my God has instructed us to love everybody including our enemies (not saying homosexuals are my enemies, just pointing out how if I'm supposed to love my enemies, then how much more am I expected to love homosexuals, who are not my enemies).
But this isn't about my beliefs. Somebody can resurrect the Christian thread if they want to talk about Christianity. This is about Atheism/Agnosticism. I'm genuinely interested in what and how you guys think, and there is no judgment here (believe it or not). I'm not trying to convince you to accept my beliefs or that your beliefs are wrong, I'm just simply presenting evidence as I see it and hoping for your perspective on it. To even enlighten me if possible on your worldview.
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I think you have a deformed sense of morality. Morality is not and has never been an individual concept. It's determined by collective behavior. Do you think atheist societies have 0 rules ? You abide by religious book, we abide by our civil code, and so on (technically you also have to abide by the civil code and so on but you get my point). The difference is that we root our rules on our rational minds, the people we elect, our legislators, and you root yours on your God. Humans has a whole decided pedophilia is wrong, we have laws against pedophilia. It's that simple  When the majority will think pedophilia is ok, then the law against pedophilia will be repealed, and pedophilia will be morally ok, will that ever happen ? No.
You're missing my point on homophobia I think. Religious books are homophobic in essence. There's no really ways around it, sorry. But believers tend to be less and less homophobic. Why ? Because books haven been interpreted differently over the times. Would you agree with that statement : "Religious books interpretation has evolved over time." If yes, try to pinpoint what caused those changes of interpretation, and you'll see where atheist find their sense of morality.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
I'm not understanding why you're so defensive. Even if Christianity is false, how does that answer any of the questions posted. .
No, which is why I'm doing my best to keep the topic on Atheism and ignoring any attempts to talk about Christianity, the Bible, Muslims, etc. |
in order for you to prove your "creator", which came out of a book from which you get your morals from, is here attacking atheists who rejected such awful "morals" you're blatantly ignoring in order to prove your point. But how are you going to prove your worldwide, when you keep it shut when the morals you love to talk about so much gets ignored? Is there something wrong with YOUR worldview when you don't want to answer back? And no, I don't want to go to Christian thread or Muslim thread and get a WP from triggered members when I call out their belief. At least your safe to come here and have a discussion without people jumping on report button because atheists are perfectly comfortable with defending their worldwide, which the same cannot be said about yours.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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I hate the term "morality", I'd like to use humanism instead. Morality is religious concept, in which examples I already stated, such as human sexuality, virginity, modest clothings, praying before eating, killing children, child marriages, etc. all come from the so-called "morality". There's a moral police where people go to prison if they don't follow religious book. Humanism is more science-based concept, that includes evolution and biology on why humans (and other animals as well) show empathy towards others.
People in the past and some religious people till this day still think that throwing lashes at woman for not being "modest enough" is morally right 
Even tho morality is in a way humanism, the word has lost it's meaning when it was connected with such bizzare and disgusting things that religious people made it seems as "morally right" thing to do. I wanna know what are your opinions on this, fellow atheists? 
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Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
I think you have a deformed sense of morality. Morality is not and has never been an individual concept. It's determined by collective behavior. Do you think atheist societies have 0 rules ? You abide by religious book, we abide by our civil code, and so on (technically you also have to abide by the civil code and so on but you get my point). The difference is that we root our rules on our rational minds, the people we elect, our legislators, and you root yours on your God. Humans has a whole decided pedophilia is wrong, we have laws against pedophilia. It's that simple When the majority will think pedophilia is ok, then the law against pedophilia will be repealed, and pedophilia will be morally ok, will that ever happen ? No. |
No, I get what your saying, and you may have proved my point, which is according to atheist, there is absolutely nothing wrong with pedophilia itself--pedophilia is neither good or bad--it's only a society's view on pedophilia that determines whether it is acceptable or not. The same could be argued for murder, rape, torture, etc-- these things aren't bad in and of themselves. In fact, they're morally right so long as people believe they are, according to Atheism.
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You're missing my point on homophobia I think. Religious books are homophobic in essence. There's no really ways around it, sorry. But believers tend to be less and less homophobic. Why ? Because books haven been interpreted differently over the times. Would you agree with that statement : "Religious books interpretation has evolved over time." If yes, try to pinpoint what caused those changes of interpretation, and you'll see where atheist find their sense of morality.
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Perhaps we have two separate definitions of homophobia. Our nations are becoming more and more secularized. So I would agree that people who interpret the Bible in light of their culture would likely have an interpretation that favors whatever culture they live in.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
No, I get what your saying, and you may have proved my point, which is according to atheist, there is absolutely nothing wrong with pedophilia itself--pedophilia is neither good or bad--it's only a society's view on pedophilia that determines whether it is acceptable or not. The same could be argued for murder, rape, torture, etc-- these things aren't bad in and of themselves. In fact, they're morally right so long as people believe they are, according to Atheism.
Perhaps we have two separate definitions of homophobia. Our nations are becoming more and more secularized. So I would agree that people who interpret the Bible in light of their culture would likely have an interpretation that favors whatever culture they live in.
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But will any society believe murder rape torture pedophilia is right ever ?
So you would agree that thinking homophobia being wrong stems from culture ?
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Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
i n order for you to prove your "creator", which came out of a book from which you get your morals from, is here attacking atheists who rejected such awful "morals" you're blatantly ignoring in order to prove your point. But how are you going to prove your worldwide, when you keep it shut when the morals you love to talk about so much gets ignored? Is there something wrong with YOUR worldview when you don't want to answer back? And no, I don't want to go to Christian thread or Muslim thread and get a WP from triggered members when I call out their belief. At least your safe to come here and have a discussion without people jumping on report button because atheists are perfectly comfortable with defending their worldwide, which the same cannot be said about yours. |
Am I attacking atheist? Again, why are you so defensive? If I truly believed that morality was subjective, then I would say, "Yeah, I don't believe pedophilia is objectively wrong". The only reason I would be angry by such a question is if there was a conflict between what I claim to believe and what I actually believe. If you don't believe that pedophilia is ever okay no matter who says or believes otherwise, then just say that. And then try find a way to resolve your problem. Just because you don't have an answer now, doesn't mean that there isn't an answer out there. Again, I'm not judging or looking down at you. Relax.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
Am I attacking atheist? Again, why are you so defensive? If I truly believed that morality was subjective, then I would say, "Yeah, I don't believe pedophilia is objectively wrong". The only reason I would be angry by such a question is if there was a conflict between what I claim to believe and what I actually believe. If you don't believe that pedophilia is ever okay no matter who says or believes otherwise, then just say that. And then try find a way to resolve your problem. Just because you don't have an answer now, doesn't mean that there isn't an answer out there. Again, I'm not judging or looking down at you. Relax.
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In order to prove if pedophillia is right or wrong, we have to look at what the consequences are, will it bring any type of positive progress for human society or not, etc.
you're in here trying to say how "atheists have no morality" because they don't follow rules made by a magical man in the sky. But when your faith gets questioned and shown hypocrisy in such claims you point out about morality, you keep it hush. 
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Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
But will any society believe murder rape torture pedophilia is right ever ?
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Did our society believe that a society would believe homosexuality, transgenderism, and abortion would be right and acceptable 90 years ago? There is just no way to tell, but I'm sure atheist wouldn't mind if they did, right?
[/Quote] So you would agree that thinking homophobia being wrong stems from culture ?[/QUOTE]
I have no reason to disagree with that.
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
You may have contradicted yourself. You said you don't believe in absolute morality, then you went on to give a (objective) standard for morality. Where did that standard come from? And do you believe that standard applies to just you or that it applies to everybody
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How? I still stand by what I'm saying. I already know that crimes like rape, murder and cannabilism are wrong not because everyone else (especially religions) thinks so. It's because I wouldn't wish that upon myself. It's already been calculated and well known even longer before religions.
For example if I say that murder is wrong, it's not because the Quran or the Bible said so, it's because I put myself in the victim's shoes. And if it really confuses you, you can decide if an action is wrong or right simply by weighing the risks and the beneficences of that action. If the risks outweigh the benefits, then it's wrong which depends on the situation of that action. Murder is not always okay, but reasonable euthanasia is perfectly acceptable to me.
Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
I may be wrong here but I see a lot of you saying you believe something that deep down you may not really believe. If morality is relative/ subjective, then does it is really exist?. Everything is right, nothing is truly wrong if this is the case. Do you guys really believe that pedophilia, murder, rape, cannibalism, torture, racism, homophobia, etc are just as morally right as helping others, giving to the poor, sacrifice, protecting the innocent, etc. Because this is what you're saying you say that absolute morality doesn't exist.
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To me, it doesn't but I can't speak for everyone. If people need a book or a messenger to tell them that donations are cool and rape is awful, then so be it. But donations are not always cool depending on who's receiving the donations as opposed to rape. Rape, cannibalism and torture for example always have risks that out weigh their benefits, that's when I know that it's wrong. But it's not a global standard.
The bible did justify rape (I'm not going to get into that, you can google it yourself), does this mean that the bible doesn't support abolute morality? Or is it being hurtful and unethical on purpose?
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Member Since: 4/14/2011
Posts: 48,397
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Fff I am opening a petition to rename this "the Anti SJW" thread or something like that
you guys are being ridiculous
Left-wing atheists>>>>
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by loveless
So if this is true, then you would have no problem admitting that there is nothing wrong with pedophilia or cannibalism, right? That a pedophile is just as morally right and good as a non-pedophile? That although you personally don't like cannibalism or pedophilia you don't believe they are worse, objectively, than stealing change out somebody's car? That a pedophiles idea of morality is just as right and valid as your own?
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I don't have a problem with calling out those things as wrong.
Pedophilia is infringing on a child's basic rights and the laws which uphold society.
Cannibalism has unhealthy effects on the body which damages a society as a whole.
Very simple reasons to object to those things.
And my individual moral ideas are rather irrelevant and what matters is the collective morals we have agreed on as a society.
Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
Fff I am opening a petition to rename this "the Anti SJW" thread or something like that
you guys are being ridiculous
Left-wing atheists>>>> |
Most people in here identify as liberals so you are in fact currently listening to "left-wing atheists".
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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if atheists don't have morals, why are only 0,4% US prisoners non-religious?
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
Fff I am opening a petition to rename this "the Anti SJW" thread or something like that
you guys are being ridiculous
Left-wing atheists>>>> |
this random ass post in the middle of "atheism has no moral" discussion 
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Religious people who still believe they operate under "god-given" morality are comletely deluding themselves. They use secular morality just as much as everyone else. Secular morality is what makes them skip over the parts of the bible which demand gay men,rape victims,people who work on Sabbath (to name a few) to be stoned and praise all the feel good parts of the bible as simply awe-inspiring and "the reason for our morality today".
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