While, yes it's true. You can choose your own gender or change it, but It's medically important to identify one's actual sex though. Even if it sounds offensive. Some people want to erase who they are completely. It might work on a social level but you really can't change chromosomes. I don't want to come off as transphobic though. I hope I'm making sense.
I do want to say you seem extremely level-headed.
There is an important discourse amongst trans folks it seems to let doctors know the gender they were assigned, etc. and that's okay as long as the doctor isn't going to deny them to identity how they wish. Discussing that isn't transphobic. Sometimes you need to let medical professionals know how you were assigned at birth, just like you would let them know your blood type. That's okay. What is transphobic is denying people the right to do as they wish and identity how they do.
Transphobic - Saying a transgender person is a "transvestite or cross-dresser" if they don't take hormones or alter their body. Literally telling people they can't identify as non-binary.
Not transphobic - Discussing that we can allow the constructionist breakdown of gender, while still respecting the reality and findings re: sex.
transition tends to have a need for medical treatment. It's biology hun. I also want a world where men and women would be equal, but that doesn't mean we must ignore biology and the fact men on average are more stronger than women for example, among other scientific reasons.
I was not talking about sex reassignment sis transition as in taking hormon pills, growing breasts, voice training, etc. and vice versa. Otherwise, the person is a transvestite.
Gender is a biological-based construct. For being that, you don't have to have a vagina or a penis to identify as the opposite sex if you're taking medical transititon that examples were already mentioned. And I agree we should be talking about those issues too, but we started a conversation about this since atheist YouTuber made a video about here and we're currently having a discussion. And I would love to continue having one with y'all, but I gotta go take a shower and then go to bed, I have to wake up early tomorrow for my driving school!
Good night y'all
There are transgender individuals in both the developed and developing world who cannot afford that or who cannot go through this process due to health concerns, or maybe it's just a personal choice--who cares. They are still transgender people.
Look at the Muxhe from Southern Mexico (Zapotec word for 'third gender' or 'male to female transgender person'). They live in smaller communities in Oaxaca in Southern Mexico and do not go through advanced medical procedures, yet they live their lives as women--and their society is very accepting of that. They do not require they get female reproductive organs or take hormones to be considered who they identify with.
There is an important discourse amongst trans folks it seems to let doctors know the gender they were assigned, etc. and that's okay as long as the doctor isn't going to deny them to identity how they wish. Discussing that isn't transphobic. Sometimes you need to let medical professionals know how you were assigned at birth, just like you would let them know your blood type. That's okay. What is transphobic is denying people the right to do as they wish and identity how they do.
Transphobic - Saying a transgender person is a "transvestite or cross-dresser" if they don't take hormones or alter their body. Literally telling people they can't identify as non-binary.
Not transphobic - Discussing that we can allow the constructionist breakdown of gender, while still respecting the reality and findings re: sex.
That's what I'm trying to say. Choose your gender but never forget who you were before, i.e. your sex. It does not imply that you are less than the gender you are or you choose to be. Sometimes it actually CAN cause mental or physiological harm to forget or even deny your birth sex.
While, yes it's true. You can choose your own gender or change it, but It's medically important to identify one's actual sex though. Even if it sounds offensive. Some people want to erase who they are completely. It might work on a social level but you really can't change chromosomes. I don't want to come off as transphobic though. I hope I'm making sense.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
This is why this discussion is so hard to be had because the mere discussion is offensive in your eyes. The mere idea to question it is "invalidating" them to you. The video that sparked this discussion was the video by Jaclyn which was the only video I agreed with and with nothing and no one else.Everything else you think "co-sign" is merely your perfection of me and what you think I must believe. Jaclyn & Arielle were not invalidating anyone in the video and I thought they were very careful in how they chose to word themselves. Questioning the labels is not telling these people that their feelings are invalid.
I'll posted this before, and I'll post this video again
There are transgender individuals in both the developed and developing world who cannot afford that or who cannot go through this process due to health concerns, or maybe it's just a personal choice--who cares. They are still transgender people.
Look at the Muxhe from Southern Mexico (Zapotec word for 'third gender' or 'male to female transgender person'). They live in smaller communities in Oaxaca in Southern Mexico and do not go through advanced medical procedures, yet they live their lives as women--and their society is very accepting of that. They do not require they get female reproductive organs or take hormones to be considered who they identify with.
that "third gender" is basically the female gender, the only refer them as "third gender" because they are seen as less than "normal" people.
I never said that because someone is transvestite that they can't identify as a female. There's just that small difference between transvestite and transgender. In order for transvestite to get a new identity by law requires paperwork and approval from their psychiatrist doctor who approves that the person has gender dysphoria and then they officially become a transgender, without any hormon or medical therapy if they can't afford it. And I don't want to seem as "transphobic", it's just how reality works in that way. There is nothing wrong with the word "transvestite" by the way, I don't know why Communiom is making is seem like it's some dirty word
I never said that because someone is transvestite that they can't identify as a female. There's just that small difference between transvestite and transgender. In order for transvestite to get a new identity by law requires paperwork and approval from their psychiatrist doctor who approves that the person has gender dysphoria and then they officially become a transgender, without any hormon or medical therapy if they can't afford it. And I don't want to seem as "transphobic", it's just how reality works in that way. There is nothing wrong with the word "transvestite" by the way, I don't know why Communiom is making is seem like it's some dirty word
Good thing you clarified your position but I still think there is one thing off with this post. .
Quote:
I never said that because someone is transvestite that they can't identify as a
female
If someone is identifying as the opposite gender then they are transgender and not a transvestite. Also, I think a lot of transgender people don't experience notable gender dysphoria and I think I've seen a study before that doesn't make strong gender dysphoria a requirement to be transgender but it's an interesting discussion to have what degree of gender dysphoria is common among trans people and how it varies. Also medical transitioning is definitely not necessary to be transgender.
I know you're not transphobic though, so I am assuming your wording was just a little off and I know it can be hard to find proper words to express feelings on this topic especially since many people use the same words differently.
Good thing you clarified your position but I still think there is one thing off with this post. .
If someone is identifying as the opposite gender then they are transgender and not a transvestite. Also, I think a lot of transgender people don't experience notable gender dysphoria and I think I've seen a study before that doesn't make strong gender dysphoria a requirement to be transgender but it's an interesting discussion to have what degree of gender dysphoria is common among trans people and how it varies. Also medical transitioning is definitely not necessary to be transgender.
I know you're not transphobic though, so I am assuming your wording was just a little off and I know it can be hard to find proper words to express feelings on this topic especially since many people use the same words differently.
ugh, yes! It's so difficult to explain my exact thoughts on this since I have to use English words, especially scientific ones to explain certain things. I think we would have better discussion if we talked about this rather than typing, so we could express ourselfs better. Someone open a Google Hangout
I think there is one topic we haven't touched on in here and that gun control.
How do you guys feel about gun laws in the US? As an outsider the gun laws in the US are quite scary to me if I'm honest.I think gun control could help with many issues in the US such as police brutality and school shooting.
I agree! I once had an argument on Twitter over @Cher tweet about shootings. She said that US must ban or something like that, and I agreed and an ugly redneck tryna come after me with abortion arguments
I can't believe US has gun laws so easy accessible
I agree! I once had an argument on Twitter over @Cher tweet about shootings. She said that US must ban or something like that, and I agreed and an ugly redneck tryna come after me with abortion arguments
I can't believe US has gun laws so easy accessible
I really can't think of any upsides to the gun laws in the US except an economic effect.
The worst argument from people who support guns in my eyes is the one along the lines of "well criminals are gonna get guns anyway whether they are illegal or not". To me this reads as "criminals will get guns anyway so we might as well make it easy for them to get them" just where is the logic?
that "third gender" is basically the female gender, the only refer them as "third gender" because they are seen as less than "normal" people.
I never said that because someone is transvestite that they can't identify as a female. There's just that small difference between transvestite and transgender. In order for transvestite to get a new identity by law requires paperwork and approval from their psychiatrist doctor who approves that the person has gender dysphoria and then they officially become a transgender, without any hormon or medical therapy if they can't afford it. And I don't want to seem as "transphobic", it's just how reality works in that way. There is nothing wrong with the word "transvestite" by the way, I don't know why Communiom is making is seem like it's some dirty word
No, but you said their gender is not feminine unless they take hormones which is false. How are they not seen as normal people? Their communities consider them to be a blessing actually, as they often are the ones who take care of the elders. The few negative opinions people have of them stem from (guess where?) the European-brought Catholic religion.
I really can't think of any upsides to the gun laws in the US except an economic effect.
The worst argument from people who support guns in my eyes is the one along the lines of "well criminals are gonna get guns anyway whether they are illegal or not". To me this reads as "criminals will get guns anyway so we might as well make it easy for them to get them" just where is the logic?
I hate when people would spend money to buy a human-killing machine. Absolutely disgusting.
Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
No, but you said their gender is not feminine unless they take hormones which is false. How are they not seen as normal people? Their communities consider them to be a blessing actually, as they often are the ones who take care of the elders. The few negative opinions people have of them stem from (guess where?) the European-brought Catholic religion.
ummm, no I didn't.
I was talking about physical/medical things that go with transitioning into a woman, having their body appear more feminine and get things that female body produces. Female body is the key point here. Yes, some communities find them as "blessed" because they are seen as "females in a male body" so they basically see them as men acting like a woman, and since they're not stereotypical "men" nor "women", they are seen as "third gender". But yeah, religion aside, just because they see these trans people as something positive, they still don't treat them as equal humans because of their religious faith which is different from Abrahamic ones, but still equally false, by scientific standpoint. (talking about their whole faith concept, not just this topic)
What you're not getting is that in the Western world "transvestite" is seen as a pejorative unless one chooses to use it and you splitting hairs between transgender and other words shows a lack of nuance.
In the West, being transgender is simply (and only) rooted in how one IDENTIFIES. There's no quantifying. There's no scale. If someone was born male and said "I'm actually a woman - I identify as a woman".... then they're a woman. It doesn't matter if they don't get surgery, don't get put on hormones (since some people can't), don't get breast implants, etc. It's.. about identity, the mind, etc. Some don't do the "outside" adjustments because they can't financially or just don't want to.
To suggest a trans women who doesn't have **** or is taking hormones (some trans folks have natural high levels of estrogen that their bodies are similar enough to what they want on their own w/o hormones) is a "cross-dresser" or a "transvestite" mimics the transphobic rhetoric of the Religious Right in the US who call trans women "men in dresses". There are cis women who don't have boobs, there are cis women with naturally muscular bodies or "masculine" frames or with deep voices. The window-dressings, if you will, don't make the house what it is. If the person identifies as a woman, they're a woman, no matter if they're doing anything else or "performing" well enough as the gender they identify as.
You're trying to quantifying something by results when it's qualified by intent.
Transgender = "I was assigned [x], but I identify as [y]".
Cross-dresser = "I was assigned [x], and I identify as [x], but dress in certain clothes that were 'assigned' to [y] for a sexual kink/fun/entertainment, etc."
That's it.
What you're not getting is that in the Western world "transvestite" is seen as a pejorative unless one chooses to use it and you splitting hairs between transgender and other words shows a lack of nuance.
In the West, being transgender is simply (and only) rooted in how one IDENTIFIES. There's no quantifying. There's no scale. If someone was born male and said "I'm actually a woman - I identify as a woman".... then they're a woman. It doesn't matter if they don't get surgery, don't get put on hormones (since some people can't), don't get breast implants, etc. It's.. about identity, the mind, etc. Some don't do the "outside" adjustments because they can't financially or just don't want to.
To suggest a trans women who doesn't have **** or is taking hormones (some trans folks have natural high levels of estrogen that their bodies are similar enough to what they want on their own w/o hormones) is a "cross-dresser" or a "transvestite" mimics the transphobic rhetoric of the Religious Right in the US who call trans women "men in dresses".
You're trying to quantifying something by results when it's qualified by intent.
Transgender = "I was assigned [x], but I identify as [y]".
Cross-dresser = "I was assigned [x], and I identify as [x], but dress in certain clothes that were 'assigned' to [y] for a sexual kink/fun/entertainment, etc."
That's it.
Well we don't look at transvestites as a bad thing(except for religious people, of course), a lot of people identify proudly as "transvestites" despite the fact they can legally change their gender identity, they choose to dress as women and give themselfs female names and everything, but not gender. There are also a lot of transgender people who want to actually be identified as females, of course. But usually transgender women tend to work hard on having more "womanly" body, while transvestites are happy with the body they have, despite even if being more masculine. I'm trying to say that transgender people tend to work harder in being accepted and seen as the opposite gender, while transvestites only like dressing as what is traditionally seen as "feminine", and the same thing is being applied to the non-binary folks. They tend to dress with mix as what society sees as "feminine and masculine" clothings, but don't change body structure or anything that actual transgenders have to go thru. Just because if a woman likes wearing jeans and short hair doesn't make her less of a female. If anything, non-binary people are pushing the stereotype of how society looks at genders instead of breaking the mold on their own. Are Scottish men "agender" because they wear skirts? No. I hope you get what I was trying to explain here
That's not how it works in the first world / the West.
Someone who doesn't physically transition isn't "working less" than someone who does. That's such an ugly way to view it. Like, what's wrong with you?
You again are focusing on clothing.
If a person says they're a woman.. they're a woman.
If a person says they're a man... they're a man.
And yes, if a person says they're non-binary, they're non-binary.
Cross-dressers are usually straight men who usually get a sexual kink from wearing women's clothes. Cis male drag queens could be considered cross-dressing too, but the phrase has a connotation associated with straight men doing it for sexual pleasure while drag queens are mainly gay men.
If someone identifies as a gender that differs from the one they were assigned a birth, then they're transgender. Your ranking system is wrong. Your ranking system is transphobic. Many of the people you consider "transvestites, not transgender" are most likely transgender. **** being "accepted as the opposite gender" - you're the gender you choose to be. This really shouldn't be hard to understand.
There are butch trans lesbians. As in, they were born male, identify as women, wear "masculine" clothing and may even "appear to look like men"... but they're still TRANSGENDER WOMEN because they identify as such. You trying to say what is a woman's body or what one has to do is keeping the gender binary and harmful stereotypes alive, not non-binary folks.
Quote:
Just because if a woman likes wearing jeans and short hair doesn't make her less of a female.
It's... not about clothes. You really are being purposefully ignorant.
A cis woman in jeans and short hair would be a woman because she identifies as a woman.
A trans woman in jeans and short hair would be a woman because she identifies as a woman
A AFAB non-binary person in jeans and short hair would be NB because they identify as NB.
That's not how it works in the first world / the West.
Someone who doesn't physically transition isn't "working less" than someone who does. That's such an ugly way to view it. Like, what's wrong with you?
You again are focusing on clothing.
If a person says they're a woman.. they're a woman.
If a person says they're a man... they're a man.
And yes, if a person says they're non-binary, they're non-binary.
Cross-dressers are usually straight men who usually get a sexual kink from wearing women's clothes. Cis male drag queens could be considered cross-dressing too, but the phrase has a connotation associated with straight men doing it for sexual pleasure while drag queens are mainly gay men.
If someone identifies as a gender that differs from the one they were assigned a birth, then they're transgender. Your ranking system is wrong. Your ranking system is transphobic. Many of the people you consider "transvestites, not transgender" are most likely transgender. **** being "accepted as the opposite gender" - you're the gender you choose to be. This really shouldn't be hard to understand.
There are butch trans lesbians. As in, they were born male, identify as women, wear "masculine" clothing and may even "appear to look like men"... but they're still TRANSGENDER WOMEN because they identify as such. You trying to say what is a woman's body or what one has to do is keeping the gender binary and harmful stereotypes alive, not non-binary folks.
It's... not about clothes. You really are being purposefully ignorant.
A cis woman in jeans and short hair would be a woman because she identifies as a woman.
A trans woman in jeans and short hair would be a woman because she identifies as a woman
A AFAB non-binary person in jeans and short hair would be NB because they identify as NB.
that's not what I was talking about, but you keep putting words in my mouth to prove a false accusation and point
Quote:
Originally posted by The Unforgiving
OMG
She GATHERED and EXPOSES Onision at the end of the video
since this thread has been dead for a day, lemme respond back to Communion's claims:
for someone who claims to know about trans topics, it's quite ignorant how you don't know the difference between a "transgender" and a "transvestite". Transgender identify as the gender in which they trainsitioned into. Transvestite dress or act as the opposite gender, but they don't identify themselfs as one. To bring you a more clear example of this; transvestites act and dress as "traditional" women, but they don't bother changing their body or idenity by law and can easily switch back and be male again. Transgender women are most likely to change their body structure and their whole identity to the opposite gender, hence why TRANSitioning from one gender to another. I gave you an example of how it's fine both transgender and transvestite. Transvestites here are most commonly men older than 40 years old who dress as females, but don't change their idenitity because (maybe) of fear from society, losing their loved ones, etc. so they dress as women because they feel "comfortable" as in that way, but changing their idenity by law and surgery is more risky and it's hard to go back once you've done it. And don't act like transvetites don't exist in your country, because they do.
here's an atheist guy who was a transvestite in his teens during late 90's. He even showed his picture as proof of being a transvestite in this video.
Now that we (hopefully) made clear that transvestism is real and is different than transgenderism. Transvestism is a "social based construct" ironically, transgenderism is not.
she didn't have to do him like that.