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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenetic
I generally try not to comment on things like this because there's always someone who either callls me a PC idiot or starts yelling at me that I'm a bigot... Which is funny, because that means both sides don't want me.
But I'll assume ATRL is a better place to discuss this stuff.
I have no issue addressing anyone the way they want it, as long as it's reasonable. A good example would be the aforementioned "dragon", which is something that goes a little too far for me.
But anyway, my issue is with people who expect you to know from a first glance what they want to be addressed as. I can't tell by the way you look what your "pronoun" is. If I say it wrong, correct me and I'll happily address you that way from then on. I might have to get used to it, but I'll definitely try.
There's people who expect everyone to talk to them exactly the way they want it and that's simply not how the world works. I feel like people like that really are stuck in their own world and can't see anything from anyone else's perspective.
Be reasonable with other people, and they'll be reasonable with you. Once you put unreasonable expectations on others, they won't bother living up to those expectations.
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I agree 100%.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenetic
I generally try not to comment on things like this because there's always someone who either callls me a PC idiot or starts yelling at me that I'm a bigot... Which is funny, because that means both sides don't want me.
But I'll assume ATRL is a better place to discuss this stuff.
I have no issue addressing anyone the way they want it, as long as it's reasonable. A good example would be the aforementioned "dragon", which is something that goes a little too far for me. Most other cases though: I might not understand it but I'll gladly address someone the way they want to be addressed.
But anyway, my issue is with people who expect you to know from a first glance what they want to be addressed as. I can't tell by the way you look what your "pronoun" is. If I say it wrong, correct me and I'll happily address you that way from then on. I might have to get used to it, but I'll definitely try.
There's people who expect everyone to talk to them exactly the way they want it and that's simply not how the world works. I feel like people like that really are stuck in their own world and can't see anything from anyone else's perspective.
Be reasonable with other people, and they'll be reasonable with you. Once you put unreasonable expectations on others, they won't bother living up to those expectations.
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I think this is the position that most of the members in the thread have and a very reasonable position to have. Also a hint, if both sides yell at you chances are you have the smartest position.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
BUT I AGREE  Socially constructed genders make no sense, sis I feel like you just love to be the contradictor and you never actually read what I'm telling you  (or I poorly express myself which is a likely possibility too ) |
Well then I have no issue with you on this. 
Again, my problem is with just one or two users.
And I would even be for debate, but saying that gender is constructed gets met with "oh so you think everyone is a bigot?? are you triggered??" or "there's only 2 genders, deal with it, PC police  ".
I obviously don't think people should have to know what people identify as at first glance - hell, I got dragged for "being super PC" by saying it's fine to ask pronouns and discussing gender so freely since there IS no reasonable way to expect people to know what every single person's gender is just based on gender expression.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenetic
I generally try not to comment on things like this because there's always someone who either callls me a PC idiot or starts yelling at me that I'm a bigot... Which is funny, because that means both sides don't want me.
But I'll assume ATRL is a better place to discuss this stuff.
I have no issue addressing anyone the way they want it, as long as it's reasonable. A good example would be the aforementioned "dragon", which is something that goes a little too far for me. Most other cases though: I might not understand it but I'll gladly address someone the way they want to be addressed.
But anyway, my issue is with people who expect you to know from a first glance what they want to be addressed as. I can't tell by the way you look what your "pronoun" is. If I say it wrong, correct me and I'll happily address you that way from then on. I might have to get used to it, but I'll definitely try.
There's people who expect everyone to talk to them exactly the way they want it and that's simply not how the world works. I feel like people like that really are stuck in their own world and can't see anything from anyone else's perspective.
Be reasonable with other people, and they'll be reasonable with you. Once you put unreasonable expectations on others, they won't bother living up to those expectations.
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I agree with most of this. What people identify as is none of my business, so I will not tell them what they can or cannot be, even if I don't believe it. I know there are people that still think that homosexuality is an illness and not a real thing, but as long as they don't start publicly hating and advocating against same sex marriage, refusing services they are obligated to provide and other rights then I couldn't give a flying ****. What bothers me is when they ask to be referred to as "they" instead of a he or a she. A man with male genitalia can come up to me and say "I identify as a woman" and I will refer to him as a her. I will not call them "they" however because it's a pronoun used when referring to multiple people. It just throws the entire thing into chaos and as a linguist with a literary degree, I can't comprehend how these already neutral single syllable words have been made into signs of vicious opression.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Well then I have no issue with you on this.
Again, my problem is with just one or two users.
And I would even be for debate, but saying that gender is constructed gets met with "oh so you think everyone is a bigot?? are you triggered??" or "there's only 2 genders, deal with it, PC police ". |
The one thing I'd like yours and others opinion is the difference between biological sex and gender. It's because in french "genre" and "sexe" are often interchangeable, so I want to get this right.
Biological sex : Either man or woman. Gender : the role expected of a man or a woman, so masculinity or being feminine, which is what is wrongfully imposed by society
Right ?
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
I will not call them "they" however because it's a pronoun used when referring to multiple people.
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There's literally a singular form of "they" in American English - such a pronoun that was chosen as Word of the Year by over a group of 200+ linguistics. Are you going to call these people SJWs too?
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Well then I have no issue with you on this.
Again, my problem is with just one or two users.
And I would even be for debate, but saying that gender is constructed gets met with "oh so you think everyone is a bigot?? are you triggered??" or "there's only 2 genders, deal with it, PC police ". |
I think most people agree that there are aspects of our life that we associate with gender that are clearly constructed. Pink for girls and blue for boys is an obvious one. Those are just colours that we arbitrarily assign genders to.
Same goes for toys and similiar stuff.
But gender has a very real basis in biology.
Hormones which create naturally masculine behaviour such as competetiveness for example.
I think what annoys people is the unnecessary labeling of those genders.
You don't need to make up words for different genders simply because you aren't 100% classically male or female. Most people actually have both masculine and female traits and basically no one is 100% masculine or feminine. That doesn't mean there is a need to make up new gender indentities and pronouns.Don't make up words for your personality and interests.Just be you.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
I agree with most of this. What people identify as is none of my business, so I will not tell them what they can or cannot be, even if I don't believe it. I know there are people that still think that homosexuality is an illness and not a real thing, but as long as they don't start publicly hating and advocating against same sex marriage, refusing services they are obligated to provide and other rights then I couldn't give a flying ****. What bothers me is when they ask to be referred to as "they" instead of a he or a she. A man with male genitalia can come up to me and say "I identify as a woman" and I will refer to him as a her. I will not call them "they" however because it's a pronoun used when referring to multiple people. It just throws the entire thing into chaos and as a linguist with a literary degree, I can't comprehend how these already neutral single syllable words have been made into signs of vicious opression.
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That's something americans may not get. Americans ARTLers may correct me but "they" can be used as a neutral pronoun in english. However in French, and most probably your language such neutral pronoun does NOT exist, our "they" is exclusively used for plurals.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
I think most people agree that there are aspects of our life that we associate with gender that are clearly constructed. Pink for girls and blue for boys is an obvious one. Those are just colours that we arbitrarily assign genders to.
Same goes for toys and similiar stuff.
But gender has a very real basis in biology.
Hormones which create naturally masculine behaviour such as competetiveness for example.
I think what annoys people is the unnecessary labeling of those genders.
You don't need to make up words for different genders simply because you aren't 100% classically male or female. Most people actually have both masculine and female traits and basically no one is 100% masculine or feminine. That doesn't mean there is a need to make up new gender indentities and pronouns.
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This is something I don't believe in, I need sources if you have some. Why competitiveness is a masculine behavior ? There's no masculine or female traits sis, they're just traits. I disagree
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
I obviously don't think people should have to know what people identify as at first glance - hell, I got dragged for "being super PC" by saying it's fine to ask pronouns and discussing gender so freely since there IS no reasonable way to expect people to know what every single person's gender is just based on gender expression.
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In the Canadian professor thread you said people should ask pronouns and it's ignorant to assume pronouns.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
ideas =/= people
etc.
edit: X2C was quicker I see.
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I mean, I do not understand why people confuse the two. the teachings of Islam are not positive, unless you start cherry picking only the good parts and ignore all the horrors. Saying this does not mean that I think all Muslims are evil or all Muslims are terrorists. the ones that do not cherry pick, take it literally or extremists are however bad people and that does not make me an islamophobe.
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Member Since: 4/29/2012
Posts: 15,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
This is something I don't believe in, I need sources if you have some. Why competitiveness is a masculine behavior ? There's no masculine or female traits sis, they're just traits. I disagree
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http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/gender.aspx
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-0...avior-men.html
Those are two articles with further reading links if you are interested in the specific scientific papers or studies. The primary sex hormones, testosterone and estrogen, have the real effects on people's behaviour which is logical since the roles that people often look at as "constructed" (women =caretaker, men=fighter,protector) have very real biological and evolutionary basis.
We tend to label competetiveness and agression as "masculine" because they are more common among men. Obviously this doesn't mean it's exclusive to men.
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For anyone who's interested in the German language there is no gender neutral pronoun except for "es" but it is usually used to describe animals or objects so many people find it demeaning to use it for people and many people use it to attack transgender people.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 188
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
BUT I AGREE Socially constructed genders make no sense, sis I feel like you just love to be the contradictor and you never actually read what I'm telling you (or I poorly express myself which is a likely possibility too ) |
Unfortunately social media gave a voice to some non-sense mentality that biology doesn't matter. There is female/male binary, and some of the "socially constructed" expectations, are actually a natural preponderance. Females in most species are responsible for reproduction, taking care of the offspring, etc. If we study the human species, we also see the same pattern, with the male being more prone to hunting and protecting the communities, considering they have more physical strength. I thought it was common sense, but it seems tumblr has made it look sexist or something to the new generation
What we can argue is not conforming to just nature and letting people choose not to live under their own natural roles using our rational thinking.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 1/21/2012
Posts: 13,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
This is something I don't believe in, I need sources if you have some. Why competitiveness is a masculine behavior ? There's no masculine or female traits sis, they're just traits. I disagree
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Do you really not see there's a physical differences between men and women?
Anyway, X and Y chromosomes are the biological basis of sexes in biology. Biologically there's just 2 sexes, and depending on the sex (XY -> male, XX -> female) you have different hormones which causes youur body and brains to grow in a slightly different way and which causes slightly different emotional reactions. This is all biologically proven.
The thing is though, that making assumptions based on someone's sex is not okay. Assuming someone is more emotional, or more aggressive, because of their gender. That would be sexist. But saying that sexes do exist and are biologically different from eachother is a scientific fact.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
That's something americans may not get. Americans ARTLers may correct me but "they" can be used as a neutral pronoun in english. However in French, and most probably your language such neutral pronoun does NOT exist, our "they" is exclusively used for plurals.
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We don't even have gender specific pronouns in my native language. In both singular and plural cases we use the same pronouns for men and women because when creating the language, nobody thought that specific pronouns would need to be given to half of the public cuz they prefer the colour pink and more feminine things.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
The one thing I'd like yours and others opinion is the difference between biological sex and gender. It's because in french "genre" and "sexe" are often interchangeable, so I want to get this right.
Biological sex : Either man or woman. Gender : the role expected of a man or a woman, so masculinity or being feminine, which is what is wrongfully imposed by society
Right ?
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Biological sex is a grouping of certain sex traits by labels.
There's "male" sex traits, and "female" sex traits - there are people born with sometimes both types - these people are considered intersex.
Which is why I always find the extremism from Atheists of all people on "2 sexes!" so weird. Anyone with a scientific mind should grasp that, well yeah, it's most common for someone to be born with a sex that fits either male or female. Most people are... but nature & science allows for there be other results. There's no magical divinity sorting babies out as male or female. **** happens. Sometimes a baby is born with male & female sex traits, so this weird attitude that mimics religious folks is.. ironic. Even the chromosome debate is silly when there's tons of variations.
And then gender is just constructed. It's societal expectations placed on people by creating groups such as "men" and "women" (often misusing biological sex categories to enforce such a binary), most often to prop up patriarchy and create imbalances between the two created "genders". Many times, religion works into this ("women" must exist as a group in society for religion to persecute them in favor of men; if a post-gender society is created, patriarchy ends), but secular societies can still prop up and enable patriarchy or other oppressive institutions supported by religions.
Femininity and masculinity more relate to gender expression. There's feminine men, masculine women, etc. You have trans people whose gender identity has no correlation to their gender expression. There can be men who are really women and just feel they're women and not because they relate to femininity. Some trans people don't even have genital/sex dysphoria.
It's such a complex, personal subject that trying to quantify and set measurements to people's identities and why they are how they are becomes just... stupid. All because you may, one time or two in your whole life, have to ask someone what their pronouns are, or have to correct your pronoun usage?
If this helps:
Male/Female/Intersex = Sex
Man/Woman/Genderless/Non-Binary = Gender (Identity)
Masculine/Feminine = Gender Expression
Quote:
Originally posted by Bangerzzz
In the Canadian professor thread you said people should ask pronouns and it's ignorant to assume pronouns. |
Because someone said "what should I do if I don't know?? People should present themselves in a way that's obvious".
You want people to change how they present themselves because the 1/10000000 likely scenario of asking someone's pronouns makes you uncomfortable?
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenetic
Do you really not see there's a physical differences between men and women?
Anyway, X and Y chromosomes are the biological basis of sexes in biology. Biologically there's just 2 sexes, and depending on the sex (XY -> male, XX -> female) you have different hormones which causes youur body and brains to grow in a slightly different way and which causes slightly different emotional reactions. This is all biologically proven.
The thing is though, that making assumptions based on someone's sex is not okay. Assuming someone is more emotional, or more aggressive, because of their gender. That would be sexist. But saying that sexes do exist and are biologically different from eachother is a scientific fact.
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inb4 Communion brings up intersex conditions as a response to that
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dontwantfun
Unfortunately social media gave a voice to some non-sense mentality that biology doesn't matter. There is female/male binary, and some of the "socially constructed" expectations, are actually a natural preponderance. Females in most species are responsible for reproduction, taking care of the offspring, etc. If we study the human species, we also see the same pattern, with the male being more prone to hunting and protecting the communities, considering they have more physical strength. I thought it was common sense, but it seems tumblr has made it look sexist or something to the new generation
What we can argue is not conforming to just nature and letting people choose not to live under their own natural roles using our rational thinking. |
I mean I'm not going to argue about female being responsible for reproduction sure, but social roles of female and male vary a lot when you take a look at animals for example. There's a lot of species who have "matriarchal society" which clearly mean both behavior (male taking care of the offspring while the female is hunting and vice versa) can be found naturally.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/gender.aspx
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-0...avior-men.html
Those are two articles with further reading links if you are interested in the specific scientific papers or studies. The primary sex hormones, testosterone and estrogen, have the real effects on people's behaviour which is logical since the roles that people often look at as "constructed" (women =caretaker, men=fighter,protector) have very real biological and evolutionary basis.
We tend to label competetiveness and agression as "masculine" because they are more common among men. Obviously this doesn't mean it's exclusive to men.
---
For anyone who's interested in the German language there is no gender neutral pronoun except for "es" but it is usually used to describe animals or objects so many people find it demeaning to use it for people and many people use it to attack transgender people. |
I'll read them, thanks (not today obvs it's 1am where I am )
Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenetic
Do you really not see there's a physical differences between men and women?
Anyway, X and Y chromosomes are the biological basis of sexes in biology. Biologically there's just 2 sexes, and depending on the sex (XY -> male, XX -> female) you have different hormones which causes youur body and brains to grow in a slightly different way and which causes slightly different emotional reactions. This is all biologically proven.
The thing is though, that making assumptions based on someone's sex is not okay. Assuming someone is more emotional, or more aggressive, because of their gender. That would be sexist. But saying that sexes do exist and are biologically different from eachother is a scientific fact.
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There is physical differences caused by biology but I don't believe gender are really influenced by biology, I may be wrong though. Like how can you explain some man acting "feminine" and woman acting "masculine" (or just not in accordance to how society expects them to act really) then?
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Biological sex is a grouping of certain sex traits by labels.
There's "male" sex traits, and "female" sex traits - there are people born with sometimes both types - these people are considered intersex.
Which is why I always find the extremism from Atheists of all people on "2 sexes!" so weird. Anyone with a scientific mind should grasp that, well yeah, it's most common for someone to be born with a sex that fits either male or female. Most people are... but nature & science allows for there be other results. There's no magical divinity sorting babies out as male or female. **** happens. Sometimes a baby is born with male & female sex traits, so this weird attitude that mimics religious folks is.. ironic. Even the chromosome debate is silly when there's tons of variations.
And then gender is just constructed. It's societal expectations placed on people by creating groups such as "men" and "women" (often misusing biological sex categories to enforce such a binary), most often to prop up patriarchy and create imbalances between the two created "genders". Many times, religion works into this ("women" must exist as a group in society for religion to persecute them in favor of men; if a post-gender society is created, patriarchy ends), but secular societies can still prop up and enable patriarchy or other oppressive institutions supported by religions.
Femininity and masculinity more relate to gender expression. There's feminine men, masculine women, etc. You have trans people whose gender identity has no correlation to their gender expression. There can be men who are really women and just feel they're women and not because they relate to femininity. Some trans people don't even have genital/sex dysphoria.
It's such a complex, personal subject that trying to quantify and set measurements to people's identities and why they are how they are becomes just... stupid. All because you may, one time or two in your whole life, have to ask someone what their pronouns are, or have to correct your pronoun usage?
If this helps:
Male/Female/Intersex = Sex
Man/Woman/Genderless/Non-Binary = Gender (Identity)
Masculine/Feminine = Gender Expression |
Thanks a lot !
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Guys. I wanna know, are there any special laws in your countries that allow parents to not take their children to doctors because of their beliefs? This is something I heard was a thing just like last year and it baffled me. How come the child protective laws and social services not interfere in these cases?
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