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News: Georgia passes 'guns everywhere' bill
Member Since: 7/9/2010
Posts: 31,471
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Not school classrooms 
Quote:
Originally posted by psychodj
My state would be the one. 
I guess so. However, I strongly feel that before you buy a gun and are legally able to own one, there should be background checks on you as person, for any history of gun crimes, terrible mental illnesses, etc. They don't have to take them; 2nd amendment, I understand. However, stricter laws need to be put in place so the wrong people don't end up with them.
Just my personal opinion. |
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 35,912
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Never learn I see
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
First, my country is just as safe as yours, second, no country is perfectly "safe" yours has a much higher murder rate than say Germany, and third, let me quote Ben Franklin:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
So harden up a bit and stop cowering from normal items like guns and knives. As for Japan it's a terrible place where private life and society is strictly regulated, it may work for Japanese culture but it's nothing like the freedoms we enjoy here.  |
I just think you have a hard time understanding a society where having these rights isn't necessary.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
I just think you have a hard time understanding a society where having these rights isn't necessary. |
Incorrect. Where I live I could count the shootings this year on one hand, and I'm talking within 300 miles of me.
I don't agree with a society where people are only allowed to do what the government says is "necessary".
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
Incorrect. Where I live I could count the shootings this year on one hand, and I'm talking within 300 miles of me.
I don't agree with a society where people are only allowed to do what the government says is "necessary".
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But if the government is right (as is the case in the countries that have banned handguns, assault rifles, etc and have a homicide rate over 50x lower than the U.S.) then why pester them about it? 
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
and have a homicide rate over 50x lower than the U.S
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There are no countries of comparable size with rates anywhere near that low.
Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
then why pester them about it? |
Because
[a] it should be a right
[b] it's as unpleasant as countries which ban "unwholesome" music or which restrict the internet. I'm sure the Chinese and Iranian governments will tell you their countries are better off like that but I wouldn't live there
[c] they can't prove the murder rate dropped because they banned guns
Here is a graph of England and Wales' murder rate, every ten years, from 1900-2010, source: Wikipedia
All the years handguns and such were legal and much easier to get, it was pretty low. The fact handguns were available didn't mean more people were being killed.
And hypothetically speaking, quite frankly if a few more people have to get capped so others can enjoy freedom to own firearms, then that's alright by me. Priorities.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
There are no countries of comparable size with rates anywhere near that low.
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I posted this earlier:
Homicide rate per 100,000
USA: 3.6
Italy: 0.36 (10 times better than US)
Denmark: 0.3 (12)
Belgium: 0.29 (12.4)
France: 0.22 (16.4)
Germany: 0.2 (18)
Spain: 0.15 (24)
Hungary: 0.13 (27.7)
Slovenia: 0.05 (72)
UK: 0.04 (90)
(Japan 0.00)
Saying that the US can't adopt any of the above countries' policies just because it is much larger isn't a valid excuse. Here's why: all of those countries are governed in a similar manner to the US, and their citizens often have approximately the same quality of life as their counterparts in the US. The main reason gun control laws are not passing through in the US right now is because of the people's opinion and the gun lobby (eg. NRA). Out of all of those countries the US easily has the highest percentage of people who would approve of the new Georgia bill, think more guns = less crime, etc. Also, the NRA has a very large influence on American politics. In effect, they pay Republican political contenders to support them. Basically, the US has more people like you who are opposed to a ban on handguns and assault rifles. Because a large majority of the people in the other countries wanted gun control, they got gun control. Size is only a minor factor and not the main reason why the US can't adopt such rules.
If you're looking for a country of 'comparable size,' though:
American Gun Homicides (source)
2010 11,078
Chinese TOTAL Homicides (source)
2010 13,410
Population of USA: 317,939,862
Population of China: 1,355,692,576
(source)
317,939,862 / 11,078 = 28,700
In 2010, 1 in every 28,700 Americans was killed by a gun.
1,355,692,576 / 13,410 = 101,095
In 2010, 1 in every 101,095 Chinese was murdered.
I included TOTAL homicides for China because I couldn't find the homicide rates, and it just further proves my point.
Now China is 4.264x larger than the US, and you could make the argument that they are less politically stable. Their life expectancy is far lower than the US (74.2 for China versus 79.8 for the US) and the average person is much poorer (GDP per capita: $9,844 for China versus $53,101 for the US). And yet, you are 3.5x more likely to get killed with a gun in the US than you are to just get killed in China!!
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
[a] it should be a right
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Just for one second imagine you're living in Japan, where in 2006 there was a grand total of TWO gun-related deaths. Would you need, or even think about, a gun? No! The Japanese government is right that people don't need to be carrying around guns, so no one complains about their ban on almost everything gun-related. Earlier, you said
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
I don't agree with a society where people are only allowed to do what the government says is "necessary".
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Clearly the Japanese government is right; do you not agree with Japan just because what they need to do to protect themselves when they walk on the street is far less than what Americans need to do?
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
[b] it's as unpleasant as countries which ban "unwholesome" music or which restrict the internet.
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Those laws are unethical and unnecessary, which is why they are protested. In China people HATE their restricted internet. The reason why almost no one living in countries with strict gun laws thinks they are unpleasant is because the people realize that the laws are doing good, are reasonable, and save lives. You're comparing countries that restrict citizen access to things that have no effect on the safety of their countries to countries that restrict citizen access to dangerous things and save thousands of lives in the process.
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
[c] they can't prove the murder rate dropped because they banned guns
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But that's the murder rate, not the gun murder rate.
And how do you explain Japan where the constitution bans guns (and adds a few exceptions later on) and their gun murder rate has been effectively nothing?
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
Quite frankly if a few more people have to get capped so others can enjoy freedom to own firearms, then that's alright by me. Priorities.
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Quite frankly, if a few more people like you have to live in anger and protest so others can enjoy safety, then that's alright by me. Priorities.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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^you're posting gun homicides again, the weapon doesn't matter. Maybe they have less gun homicides but the overall homicides remain unaffected. People killed with guns aren't "worth more" than people killed by other methods.
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The reason why almost no one living in countries with strict gun laws thinks they are unpleasant is because the people realize that the laws are doing good, are reasonable, and save lives.
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No, it is because they are ignorant about guns 
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
No, it is because they are ignorant about guns |
No, they're not ignorant. They simply hold the belief (which can be backed up with many statistics) that less guns = less crime.
It's just like you & I aren't ignorant for holding our respective beliefs. We both have valid points and understand the other side's argument.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
No, they're not ignorant. They simply hold the belief (which can be backed up with many statistics) that less guns = less crime.
It's just like you & I aren't ignorant for holding our respective beliefs. We both have valid points and understand the other side's argument.
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I understand the mechanics of their view, but I can't see things from their point of view or put myself in their shoes. It seems crazy someone would actually want to ban guns. In fact it seems kind of crazy people wouldn't like guns in the first place, it's like not enjoying catchy music, fast cars or good food  they are denying themselves.
I'm pretty sure most anti-gun people have had little or no experience around guns... it's strange so it's frightening.
Hey, I gotta ask  what about you?
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Banned
Member Since: 4/27/2012
Posts: 33,811
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School classrooms? 
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 23,128
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wonderlust
Never learn I see
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lol right? Lemme NOT visit that state now that I know how dangerous it's about to become.
I'm praying for the resident of GA. Y'all be safe now, or get out of there while you can.
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Member Since: 11/20/2010
Posts: 7,042
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I dont agree with it in bars...like seriously with all the drunk bar brawls you are going to add guns to the situation.
Lord have mercy.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
I can't see things from their point of view or put myself in their shoes. It seems crazy someone would actually want to ban guns.
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Well maybe you could try to look at the situation from their perspective. To them, guns aren't fun or interesting. They're dangerous weapons that can kill people. Bombs are dangerous weapons that can kill people, and they're not fun or interesting. Wouldn't you agree with a worldwide ban on them? I'm sure I would. What bombs are to you, guns are to them.
Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
it's like not enjoying catchy music, fast cars or good food they are denying themselves. |
It's not like that because you can't just generalize and make blanket statements like that. Not everyone likes catchy music, or fast cars, or guns. There are just some people, like I said above, who view guns as completely boring, uninteresting, and pointless.
I think a lot of people who view the situation the same way as you might look at it differently if they understood the way a lot of people feel about guns.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
Well maybe you could try to look at the situation from their perspective. To them, guns aren't fun or interesting. They're dangerous weapons that can kill people. Bombs are dangerous weapons that can kill people, and they're not fun or interesting. Wouldn't you agree with a worldwide ban on them? I'm sure I would. What bombs are to you, guns are to them.
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Well I wouldn't agree on a worldwide ban on all bombs  some people might want to own things like hand grenades, rocket-propelled grenades, artillery shells, maybe collectors of old munitions could want bombs.
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It's not like that because you can't just generalize and make blanket statements like that. Not everyone likes catchy music, or fast cars, or guns. There are just some people, like I said above, who view guns as completely boring, uninteresting, and pointless.
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And the difference is they want to ban them. I don't want to ban Beyonce or Grimes because I'm not interested in it.
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I think a lot of people who view the situation the same way as you might look at it differently if they understood the way a lot of people feel about guns.
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No, they would view it the exact same.
Because it would be like banning certain music or food. Would you want to live in a country where it was illegal to listen to your faves? How about a country where it was illegal to frequent certain internet forums?
Same thing, banning guns = banning the enjoyment and hobbies of people. Their opinions and mine will never change...
Also you never answered my last question
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
Because it would be like banning certain music or food. Would you want to live in a country where it was illegal to listen to your faves? How about a country where it was illegal to frequent certain internet forums?
Same thing, banning guns = banning the enjoyment and hobbies of people. Their opinions and mine will never change...
Also you never answered my last question |
1) Guns are dangerous, and listening to my faves is not. That's why it's more reasonable to ban guns. Because it would save thousands of lives. There are still shooting ranges in Europe, you know, despite the low gun homicide rates.
2) Your last question: I for one have never shot a gun but I have been to a shooting range with my dad's friend, he's a Republican, has NRA membership, very against gun control, so I've seen him shoot.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
1) Guns are dangerous, and listening to my faves is not. That's why it's more reasonable to ban guns. Because it would save thousands of lives. There are still shooting ranges in Europe, you know, despite the low gun homicide rates.
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Shooting only at a range is not a very acceptable substitute. People like different kinds of guns, the difference between types can be like the difference between dubstep and Beethoven. Not being able to own a pistol isn't okay to someone who's interested in shooting pistols... it is a completely different sport and interest from .22 rifles.
You can't expect people to support the limitation of their main hobbies and interests because some random person *might* be killed by some other random person who would *already* be breaking other, way more serious laws, and *might* not be stopped a new law at all.
Do you donate money to African children or animal shelters every time you see those advertisements on TV? I expect not... that doesn't mean you're a selfish person.
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2) Your last question: I for one have never shot a gun but I have been to a shooting range with my dad's friend, he's a Republican, has NRA membership, very against gun control, so I've seen him shoot.
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You ever argued with him?
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 43,331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
You ever argued with him?
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Yeah, a few times. He's easy on me though because I'm a smart kid
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See, here's the problem: there's no way to please both sides in this situation. People like you want to be able to shoot pistols for fun, and people like me want to have a safer country by banning them. It's hard to find a middle ground and that's why nothing's been done.
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Banned
Member Since: 3/19/2012
Posts: 7,835
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
See, here's the problem: there's no way to please both sides in this situation. People like you want to be able to shoot pistols for fun, and people like me want to have a safer country by banning them. It's hard to find a middle ground and that's why nothing's been done.
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There is no middle ground because neither side would accept one. Even if they did, in a few years there would already be talk of new legislation one way or another. And especially in America gun enthusiasts see societies with strict laws as authoritarian, unfair and lacking freedom... which to those people they actually are, it's not just a perception.
Right now laws in America seem to be either staying about the same or becoming less restrictive, so that's a good thing even though I don't live there. Seeing laws like this is the same as seeing gay marriage legalized or other civil rights victories. Good. This Georgia law is very minor though since people could carry almost anywhere before, so it changes things very little.
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Member Since: 6/20/2011
Posts: 6,575
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexanderao
I posted this earlier:
Homicide rate per 100,000
USA: 3.6
Italy: 0.36 (10 times better than US)
Denmark: 0.3 (12)
Belgium: 0.29 (12.4)
France: 0.22 (16.4)
Germany: 0.2 (18)
Spain: 0.15 (24)
Hungary: 0.13 (27.7)
Slovenia: 0.05 (72)
UK: 0.04 (90)
(Japan 0.00)
Saying that the US can't adopt any of the above countries' policies just because it is much larger isn't a valid excuse. Here's why: all of those countries are governed in a similar manner to the US, and their citizens often have approximately the same quality of life as their counterparts in the US. The main reason gun control laws are not passing through in the US right now is because of the people's opinion and the gun lobby (eg. NRA). Out of all of those countries the US easily has the highest percentage of people who would approve of the new Georgia bill, think more guns = less crime, etc. Also, the NRA has a very large influence on American politics. In effect, they pay Republican political contenders to support them. Basically, the US has more people like you who are opposed to a ban on handguns and assault rifles. Because a large majority of the people in the other countries wanted gun control, they got gun control. Size is only a minor factor and not the main reason why the US can't adopt such rules.
If you're looking for a country of 'comparable size,' though:
American Gun Homicides (source)
2010 11,078
Chinese TOTAL Homicides (source)
2010 13,410
Population of USA: 317,939,862
Population of China: 1,355,692,576
(source)
317,939,862 / 11,078 = 28,700
In 2010, 1 in every 28,700 Americans was killed by a gun.
1,355,692,576 / 13,410 = 101,095
In 2010, 1 in every 101,095 Chinese was murdered.
I included TOTAL homicides for China because I couldn't find the homicide rates, and it just further proves my point.
Now China is 4.264x larger than the US, and you could make the argument that they are less politically stable. Their life expectancy is far lower than the US (74.2 for China versus 79.8 for the US) and the average person is much poorer (GDP per capita: $9,844 for China versus $53,101 for the US). And yet, you are 3.5x more likely to get killed with a gun in the US than you are to just get killed in China!!
Just for one second imagine you're living in Japan, where in 2006 there was a grand total of TWO gun-related deaths. Would you need, or even think about, a gun? No! The Japanese government is right that people don't need to be carrying around guns, so no one complains about their ban on almost everything gun-related. Earlier, you said
Clearly the Japanese government is right; do you not agree with Japan just because what they need to do to protect themselves when they walk on the street is far less than what Americans need to do?
Those laws are unethical and unnecessary, which is why they are protested. In China people HATE their restricted internet. The reason why almost no one living in countries with strict gun laws thinks they are unpleasant is because the people realize that the laws are doing good, are reasonable, and save lives. You're comparing countries that restrict citizen access to things that have no effect on the safety of their countries to countries that restrict citizen access to dangerous things and save thousands of lives in the process.
But that's the murder rate, not the gun murder rate.
And how do you explain Japan where the constitution bans guns (and adds a few exceptions later on) and their gun murder rate has been effectively nothing?
Quite frankly, if a few more people like you have to live in anger and protest so others can enjoy safety, then that's alright by me. Priorities. |
YES SIS YOU JUST SLAYED ALL THE PRO-GUN ADVOCATES
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