Second, you are the one who, in reply to me, claimed that Aretha, not being a pop singer, did not have to sing like one. The only way that sentence makes even the slightest lick of sense within your paragraph is if you are saying that being a vocalist like Leah matters for pop, but not other genres (whatever Aretha is supposedly).
Third: Out-sing, again, is undefined as a comparative. Its like asking : who is the best singer. Asking who the best singer is is a very different question than asking who the best technical vocalist is, and I fail to understand your inability to grasp that.
Lea is not a pop singer, she's a theatrical singer, she sings in theatre terms where things are probably more concrete and where things are much more disciplined. Music at large isn't disciplined. You have undisciplined singers singing every day in the mainstream since record labels no longer teach singers the proper way to sing and also because singing in the professional way is not as valued in other genre's. That's why you have singers with atrocious skill levels singing because they are untrained. Celine, Mariah, Whitney, Barbra are all trained singers and all acclaimed because of their technique and skill. Lea is in a similar category but for obvious reasons not as acclaimed. You seem to be struggling in some way in trying to define or measure something against an external standard but you have no idea what you are attempting to measure. You seem to be confused and I have no idea what you are talking about.
And no asking who is the better singer is not different from saying who the better technical vocalist is, you should probably include both of those assertions and judgments when trying to classify who is the better singer in a comparison.
You need to bone up on your logical writing skills. Making assertions without evidence does not make a sound arguement. You for example proclaim without evidence that song genre somehow makes a difference to how we can judge a singer's technical ability without even the slightest shred of support. That assertion makes zero actual logical sense, since vocal technique is about the way a singer uses their voice, which is not connected to musical genre. Someone can belt out a 5 second note at A5, yes or no - whether they deploy such a note on a country or pop ballad makes no difference to their ability to do so.
You also seem to be confused as to the meaning of objective: you yourself in a previous post said: In singing, almost everything is subjective. Everything, except technical skill. Technical skill is something that can be taught, heard, and acknowledged. Well, objective is the antonym of subjective. You YOURSELF proclaimed technical skill to be objective. Then you reply to me telling me it isn't when I agreed with you? What the heck?
Second, you are the one who, in reply to me, claimed that Aretha, not being a pop singer, did not have to sing like one. The only way that sentence makes even the slightest lick of sense within your paragraph is if you are saying that being a vocalist like Leah matters for pop, but not other genres (whatever Aretha is supposedly).
Third: Out-sing, again, is undefined as a comparative. Its like asking : who is the best singer. Asking who the best singer is is a very different question than asking who the best technical vocalist is, and I fail to understand your inability to grasp that.
At least finally you admitted that under the version of the word "out-sing" that you are stuck on, Leah Michelle outsings Aretha Franklin. I would simply say that I don't think that is a definition of the term "out-sing" that most people would use, if that judgement is an inevitable result of that statement.
The genre ABSOLUTELY makes a difference to how a singer uses their voice. I don't even have to provide evidence for that, it is shocking and appalling that you're questioning it. Do you sing? Have you ever had a singing lesson? Do you study music theory? Do you even LISTEN to other genres, especially those that were popular pre-our time? That statement that "genre has nothing to do with it" is just a tad ignorant.
Additionally, the only difference between country and pop is instrumental/melodic, they're not separate shades of singing so that doesn't apply here. Plus: Aretha Franklin is a soul singer, I'm going to back off of that one and hop to God that you knew that.
But I did misread when you said objective, my brain turned it into "subjective". That was my fault, sorry.
Addressing the "pop singer" remark: since this thread is about people's "faves" and this is a pop music forum, it's only natural we discuss pop singers. I entertained your argument concerning Aretha Franklin purely because you brought it up and it was a good reference point.
Maybe we're talking about different things. My definition of out-sing, in a scenario where it can be debated about on a level that isn't completely opinionated, is how much better a singer is technically than another. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.
And also this is supposed to be a friendly debate, I'm not trying to go in on you personally.
Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
Lea is not a pop singer, she's a theatrical singer, she sings in theatre terms where things are probably more concrete and where things are much more disciplined. Music at large isn't disciplined. You have undisciplined singers singing every day in the mainstream since record labels no longer teach singers the proper way to sing and also because singing in the professional way is not as valued in other genre's. That's why you have singers with atrocious skill levels singing because they are untrained. Celine, Mariah, Whitney, Barbra are all trained singers and all acclaimed because of their technique and skill. Lea is in a similar category but for obvious reasons not as acclaimed. You seem to be struggling in some way in trying to define or measure something against an external standard but you have no idea what you are attempting to measure. You seem to be confused and I have no idea what you are talking about.
And no asking who is the better singer is not different from saying who the better technical vocalist is, you should probably include both of those assertions and judgments when trying to classify who is the better singer in a comparison.
!!!!
Please use this post as a reference, I agree with it. And, JUST IN CASE you come for me on this note, I am referring to Lea Michele in the pop singer category because most of what we've heard from her comes from pop covers on Glee. She sings a little bit differently on stage.
Lea is not a pop singer, she's a theatrical singer, she sings in theatre terms where things are probably more concrete and where things are much more disciplined. Music at large isn't disciplined. You have undisciplined singers singing every day in the mainstream since record labels no longer teach singers the proper way to sing and also because singing in the professional way is not as valued in other genre's. That's why you have singers with atrocious skill levels singing because they are untrained. Celine, Mariah, Whitney, Barbra are all trained singers and all acclaimed because of their technique and skill. Lea is in a similar category but for obvious reasons not as acclaimed. You seem to be struggling in some way in trying to define or measure something against an external standard but you have no idea what you are attempting to measure. You seem to be confused and I have no idea what you are talking about.
And no asking who is the better singer is not different from saying who the better technical vocalist is, you should probably include both of those assertions and judgments when trying to classify who is the better singer in a comparison.
I assume this is in reply to me so: I disagree witht he concept of ojbective standards for subjective questions like "who is a better singer", and the question you asked is merely a diffrent way ot asking that very question. I think that is wrong because singing is something that is done for a vast range of music formsas you noted. What makes someone a great opera singer might, or might not, translate to singing Gospel, or rock, or country.
If you want to ask a much less subjective question, like, who is a superior vocalist (with vocalist defined as a singer utilizing vocal techniques) then yes, in that much more limited and bound question it makes sense to use the objective standards of what is thought to be superior or inferior technique. Clearly singers in musical theater and opera will be as a whole much better than people lacking their extensive training.
I am very well aware of what my terms are - i would posit that the lack of clarity lies with the OP.
Kelly's vocals are almost as good as they were in 2005. No one can beat her right now in my opinion.
I actually haven't, wow. I was thinking of her Mr. Know It All / Stronger performances, which I remember weren't all that. I guess it's because Stronger was a change in direction for her, she really does sound great. My bad.
No she can't cause although she can reach fairly high notes... her range is fairly small... the only ones she can probably out sing are K$ and Selena.... the others though....
I actually haven't, wow. I was thinking of her Mr. Know It All / Stronger performances, which I remember weren't all that. I guess it's because Stronger was a change in direction for her, she really does sound great. My bad.
I know! I kinda underestimated her vocals recently but the Kelly stan that made that clip from her DUETS show showed me it and I was like Girl can still outsing our faves after 10 years. She is truly an incredible vocalist.
I'm a fan of vocals too, I have faves with bad vocals but I admit this!
Unless your fave is Beyonce or Mariah Carey, you're lying to yourself if you said no. There is only one other pop singer I can name who is able to fully belt an A5, and that is that.
Technically speaking yes, she can outsing over half of my faves. She's trained 'Broadway' style and the only other people than can outsing Broadway singers are Opera singers.
I think we've both made our point. I just wanted to get mine out there, I realize I came across a little... super harsh.
I was thinking of her Mr. Know It All / Stronger performances, which I remember weren't all that. I guess it's because Stronger was a change in direction for her, she really does sound great. My bad. 