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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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It's so funny we have that conversation when literally muslim women are more covered the more oppressive the Islamic country they live in is. Like it doesn't take rocket science to put 1+1 together here 
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
But sis, the confederate flag is inherently racist, what the hell ?  |
Yes, but it's not anyone who is not black's position to argue with black people reclaiming it or repurposing it for commentary, fashion, or choice.
Are you going to lecture RuPaul on how the flag is racist? Of course not, because he most likely understands and know how oppressive it is, flipping the script on it and repurposing it for something fashion.
Because the hijab has religious connotations, the way people may repurpose or reclaim or reappropriate to make it not oppressive may be in ways you don't understand. 
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Member Since: 6/20/2012
Posts: 8,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
It's so funny we have that conversation when literally muslim women are more covered the more oppressive the Islamic country they live in is. Like it doesn't take rocket science to put 1+1 together here |
I'm gone for a month and y'all still debating this.  Amazing.
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I think Muslim women (or anyone really) should be allowed to wear a Hijab as long it is fully consensual.
Next!
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
White people are the oppressors in this scenario.
You're misunderstanding the comparison.
If a black man in the South loved his confederate flag and reclaimed it and wanted to show it with pride, then really, you gotta let him do what he wants. But white people - as the oppressors - do not get an opinion. They're not in a position to reclaim something oppressive, as it's not oppressive to them.
Notice how I said Muslim women, because Muslim women are the targets of oppression regarding this item of clothing. A Muslim man's opinion would be irrelevant.
Like it's okay for me as a gay man to not want to be called ******, but another gay man can say he likes the word as something empowering; same with words like queer. However, straight people do not get a voice in this and don't get to reclaim these things.
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That is ridiculous. How is something reclaimed if it still maintains an offensive meaning to majority of people. Gays make up like what, 10% of the god dam planet, how exactly is the word reclaimed if 90% of the people using the word ****** have no right to use it in a positive way. Do you not realise how language works and how words work? A word has a definite meaning(s). How are two people supposed to communicate if they each start assigning different meanings to words according to their whims.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Yes, but it's not anyone who is not black's position to argue with black people reclaiming it or repurposing it for commentary, fashion, or choice.
Are you going to lecture RuPaul on how the flag is racist? Of course not, because he most likely understands and know how oppressive it is, flipping the script on it and repurposing it for something fashion.
Because the hijab has religious connotations, the way people may repurpose or reclaim or reappropriate to make it not oppressive may be in ways you don't understand. |
That pic is terrifying, it's SO disrespectful to sport this outfit imo. We'll have to disagree here 
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
That is ridiculous. How is something reclaimed if it still maintains an offensive meaning to majority of people. Gays make up like what, 10% of the god dam planet, how exactly is the word reclaimed if 90% of the people using the word ****** have no right to use it in a positive way. Do you not realise how language works and how words work? A word has a definite meaning(s). How are two people supposed to communicate if they each start assigning different meanings to words according to their whims.
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African Americans make-up less than 20% of the US and yet there are racial slurs that are part of AAVE and black American vernacular that are fine to use yet are 100% racist if a non-black person says them.
****** is more loaded, which is why I used "queer" as another example too regarding LGBT folks.
How are you not grasping this concept?
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
That is ridiculous. How is something reclaimed if it still maintains an offensive meaning to majority of people. Gays make up like what, 10% of the god dam planet, how exactly is the word reclaimed if 90% of the people using the word ****** have no right to use it in a positive way. Do you not realise how language works and how words work? A word has a definite meaning(s). How are two people supposed to communicate if they each start assigning different meanings to words according to their whims.
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Because community reclamation isn't about pleasing the majority, a lot of minorities have things they take pride in amongst each other that they feel is okay amongst them but not everyone.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by heckinglovato
I'm gone for a month and y'all still debating this. Amazing.
_________________
I think Muslim women (or anyone really) should be allowed to wear a Hijab as long it is fully consensual.
Next! |
Nobody is discussing whether it is allowed. We are discussing whether or not it can be empowering.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
White people are the oppressors in this scenario.
You're misunderstanding the comparison.
If a black man in the South loved his confederate flag and reclaimed it and wanted to show it with pride, then really, you gotta let him do what he wants. But white people - as the oppressors - do not get an opinion. They're not in a position to reclaim something oppressive, as it's not oppressive to them.
Notice how I said Muslim women, because Muslim women are the targets of oppression regarding this item of clothing. A Muslim man's opinion would be irrelevant.
Like it's okay for me as a gay man to not want to be called ******, but another gay man can say he likes the word as something empowering; same with words like queer. However, straight people do not get a voice in this and don't get to reclaim these things.
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by that logic, then burqa/niqab/hijab represent a religion that opresses AND kills gay people and atheists.
so yeah, we as atheists and gays have the right to feel opressed when seeing a symbol that represents ideology that murdered other LGBT people and atheists and probably wants me dead.
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Member Since: 6/20/2012
Posts: 8,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Nobody is discussing whether it is allowed. We are discussing whether or not hijab can be empowering.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
by that logic, then burqa/niqab/hijab represent a religion that opresses AND kills gay people and atheists.
so yeah, we as atheists and gays have the right to feel opressed when seeing a symbol that represents ideology that murdered other LGBT people and atheists and probably wants me dead.
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In America/certain Western European countries? Nope.
Which is why this is about the discussion of these things reclaimed by secular/Western Muslims who don't live in societies that coerce them to wear it, who have free will and free choice and who choose to wear it because they feel empowered.
You're stuck with the belief that every Muslim is like the ones you may experience in Eastern Nowhere Europe and the Middle East and that religious extremism makes up every faction of Islamic belief around the world, when that's simply not the case.
You refuse to understand that the power dynamics differ from your side of the world to ours.
Of course Islamists will be privileged & oppressors in the Middle East, but you have to accept the reality that Muslims are racialized minorities in the US/areas of the West.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
That pic is terrifying, it's SO disrespectful to sport this outfit imo. We'll have to disagree here |
There are certain cases where it's taking the piss out of something, as someone Black and knowing RuPaul, I think he's just being silly.
I wanna provide another example similar to that but this is getting so off from where we were talking about now lol.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
That is ridiculous. How is something reclaimed if it still maintains an offensive meaning to majority of people. Gays make up like what, 10% of the god dam planet, how exactly is the word reclaimed if 90% of the people using the word ****** have no right to use it in a positive way. Do you not realise how language works and how words work? A word has a definite meaning(s). How are two people supposed to communicate if they each start assigning different meanings to words according to their whims.
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Sis... Do you know how language works? 
Anyway, I mean, I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that circumstances dictate whether wearing a piece of clothing is empowering or not.
If you're in the US and living in a place where it's almost taboo to express yourself in such a manner, it is empowering to walk around with whatever you want on.
If you're in a regressive Middle Eastern country and it's hot af and you want to take of your hijab, but you know your religious community, including your family, will punish you, it's oppressive.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
Because community reclamation isn't about pleasing the majority, a lot of minorities have things they take pride in amongst each other that they feel is okay amongst them but not everyone.
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that is all very sentimental and sweet but if a word maintains a negative connotation to the majority of the world then nothing has changed. I am an egalitarian and I believe that if gay people can use the words queer and ****** then straight people should be able to as well. Why does my straight friend for example not have a right to use that word just because one of his ancestors might have used it to negatively impact gays. I don't think that is a healthy approach to equality.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
In America/certain Western European countries? Nope.
Which is why this is about the discussion of these things reclaimed by secular/Western Muslims who don't live in societies that coerce them to wear it, who have free will and free choice and who choose to wear it because they feel empowered.
You're stuck with the belief that every Muslim is like the ones you may experience in Eastern Nowhere Europe and the Middle East and that religious extremism makes up every faction of Islamic belief around the world, when that's simply not the case.
You refuse to understand that the power dynamics differ from your side of the world to ours.
Of course Islamists will be privileged & oppressors in the Middle East, but you have to accept the reality that Muslims are racialized Muslims in the US/areas of the West.
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it doesn't matter in they live on planet Pluto, they wear something that symolizes oppresion and follows a belief that wants people like me dead AND also represents religion which killed hundreds of people like me.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
There are certain cases where it's taking the piss out of something, as someone Black and knowing RuPaul, I think he's just being silly.
I wanna provide another example similar to that but this is getting so off from where we were talking about now lol.
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I mean it's about sensibilities then I guess. If I see someone trying to "reclaim" nazis symbols I'd probably be so upset I'd cry.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
that is all very sentimental and sweet but if a word maintains a negative connotation to the majority of the world then nothing has changed. I am an egalitarian and I believe that if gay people can use the words queer and ****** then straight people should be able to as well. Why does my straight friend for example not have a right to use that word just because one of his ancestors might have used it to negatively impact gays. I don't think that is a healthy approach to equality.
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Just gonna say we definitely have different view points on this and leave it at that.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
I mean it's about sensibilities then I guess. If I see someone trying to "reclaim" nazis symbols I'd probably be so upset I'd cry.
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It kinda is.
I think it's also about how people go about expressing whatever they are in that case.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
In America/certain Western European countries? Nope.
Which is why this is about the discussion of these things reclaimed by secular/Western Muslims who don't live in societies that coerce them to wear it, who have free will and free choice and who choose to wear it because they feel empowered.
You're stuck with the belief that every Muslim is like the ones you may experience in Eastern Nowhere Europe and the Middle East and that religious extremism makes up every faction of Islamic belief around the world, when that's simply not the case.
You refuse to understand that the power dynamics differ from your side of the world to ours.
Of course Islamists will be privileged & oppressors in the Middle East, but you have to accept the reality that Muslims are racialized minorities in the US/areas of the West.
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The pressure to wear it exist in Europe sis, I don't know about America since I don't live there, but I can tell you for a fact it exists.
As far as the gays, no muslim is killing them obviously, but I can safely say that most of them do not accept them. Most religious people don't, are we going to be naive here ?
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
It kinda is.
I think it's also about how people go about expressing whatever they are in that case.
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Yeah we disagree. There's stuff that should be left in the past and never touched again imo. We have commemorations if you want to remember and build on our mistakes.
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