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TV Show: Game of Thrones: Season 7 | Teaser released
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 5,905
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On mobile so no essays until I get home later, but let's not forgot the whole Azor Ahai = "the prince that was promised" ("promise me, Ned") = " his is the song of ice & fire" (ie: targaryen & stark blood). It is just as likely that the story is about him, and he will be the sole hero of the story. It would be an extremely GRRMesque thing to do to have Jon & Dany team up, only to somehow show history only remembers one or the other as a hero (in much the same way that history is written by the winners).
Also, if they do come into conflict and one side must become the antagonist, it is significantly more likely said antagonist will be the woman riding a black dragon coming to "claim what's mine with fire and blood", which also happens to be power especially compared to the heroic, sometimes too trusting for his own good, reluctant to seize power guy, who George has made a point of appearing a spitting image of his also "too noble to live" father/uncle.
And that speculation of Dany dying
in childbirth
is absurd. George + D&D would NEVER live down giving one of the most prominent female protagonists on television (and in fantasy literature/television/movie HISTORY) such a cliche "useless girlfriend/nagging wife" death. Also, it was prophesied (which generally tends to be true in ASoIaF) that she
would never have children
. Whether this means she's
unable to carry a child to term or she'll die before she is able to
remains ambiguous, but most fans assume it is the former.
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Member Since: 8/25/2012
Posts: 30,317
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@Patri
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If Jon Snow is both Ice & Fire,
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I didn't say he was. Im saying Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire. As in, Jon represents the North and Dany the south and even their sigils reflect their element. They are pillars to the story. You could kill off all the other characters, but you can't kill off Dany or Jon. Not yet, anyway.
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Jorah Mormont
Grey Worm
Missandei
Tyrion
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All those people are experienced, older, wiser, have more knowledge than the people Jon surrounds himself, than Jon and Dany themselves tbh.
Jorah is a experienced warrior
Grey Worm is a highly skilled officer, trained for his role
Missandei is extremely educated
Tyrion is educated, has fought in battles and knows politics
Varys is also involved and he's a mastermind
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Jon's "honour" would never have made him accept Tyrion's help since he's a Lannister.
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Not true, because he "asked" Roose Bolton for men in their time of need at the wall, even though Roose killed his family.
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Sansa needed to covertly write to Littlefinger to enlist his support.
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She didn't need to do that, she chose to be covert. Her brother deserved to know, he wouldn't have opposed, he was desperate for manpower.
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Fire does kill them, not sure what you're trying to say here...
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Nope. Fire does not kill White Walkers, it kills wights. White Walkers walked through the flames towards Bran's cave uneffected.
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"That will happen when Daenerys arrives, takes her Kingdoms and turns North to protect them"
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The North is not hers to take They've voted for their ruler, if she wants it she will have to fight for it, it's winter, times are harsh, she won't want another war if she indeed plans to take back Kings Landing, which will be war #1. She's not going to send her men north to die in the snow when she knowns she could just make an alliance. It's nonsense and stupid.
This is why they mentioned marriage last season. It might not come to that, but they will be allies. They will have to be.
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That's not going to happen with Jon Snow keeping the North independent
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The North has always been independant, they live in an entirely different climate and deal with different issues, have a different culture.
Independence is not a bad thing. Dany realised that when she gave Yara the right to be Queen if she supported her claim. Same could happen with Jon.
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If Jon were a martyr, he would have stayed dead
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He didn't choose to come back! lmao They wanted him to come back because he's fearless in his quest to save humanity.
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Member Since: 8/25/2012
Posts: 30,317
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Also, im sure it's Jon STARK now
All he needed to be legitimised was a decree from the King and he's a King.
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Member Since: 3/4/2011
Posts: 1,638
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Originally posted by Ressti
@Patri
I didn't say he was. Im saying Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire. As in, Jon represents the North and Dany the south and even their sigils reflect their element. They are pillars to the story. You could kill off all the other characters, but you can't kill off Dany or Jon. Not yet, anyway.
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Well then that just solidifies my point even further then, doesn't it? The face-off will be between Fire Ice, Life & Death. If Jon Snow is Ice, then he is also Death. If Death wins in the end, then the whole story was pointless to begin with.
To be clear, I think it will be an internal struggle between both as JS is half Stark, half Targaryen - yet ALL bastard.
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Originally posted by Ressti
All those people are experienced, older, wiser, have more knowledge than the people Jon surrounds himself, than Jon and Dany themselves tbh.
Jorah is a experienced warrior
Grey Worm is a highly skilled officer, trained for his role
Missandei is extremely educated
Tyrion is educated, has fought in battles and knows politics
Varys is also involved and he's a mastermind
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Again, you're just re-inforcing my point that Daenerys is a wiser, more effective leader because the people she surrounds herself with have more knowledge than those Jon surrounds himself with. Not sure what you're trying to say here that I haven't already?
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Originally posted by Ressti
Not true, because he "asked" Roose Bolton for men in their time of need at the wall, even though Roose killed his family.
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And how begrudgingly did he do so? He was about to kill Sam for even suggesting it. And let's be frank, Jon doing that is nothing like Dany taking on Tyrion as HotQ. If Jon had taken on Ramsay into his entourage/as his first in command, then you could equate the two. Jon would never make common cause with a Lannister or a Bolton or whoever. Full stop.
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Originally posted by Ressti
She didn't need to do that, she chose to be covert. Her brother deserved to know, he wouldn't have opposed, he was desperate for manpower.
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She chose to be covert because he undermined her the whole time. He underestimated her, he underestimated Ramsay, he underestimated the whole situation. If anything, that whole facet shows that Sansa is capable of turning on him on a dime and keeping info from him.
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Originally posted by Ressti
Nope. Fire does not kill White Walkers, it kills wights. White Walkers walked through the flames towards Bran's cave unaffected.
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You may be correct about regular fire but dragonfire is different. It melted the stone at Harrenhal, remember? It burns hotter and more intensely than regular fire. Anyway, I'm sure we'll have the answer to that sooner or later and I don't know that it's particularly relevant to Jon vs. Dany.
I would note that Dany being impervious to fire and Jon being absolutely susceptible to fire is also very telling of their importance.
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Originally posted by Ressti
The North is not hers to take They've voted for their ruler, if she wants it she will have to fight for it, it's winter, times are harsh, she won't want another war if she indeed plans to take back Kings Landing, which will be war #1. She's not going to send her men north to die in the snow when she knowns she could just make an alliance. It's nonsense and stupid.
This is why they mentioned marriage last season. It might not come to that, but they will be allies. They will have to be.
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Of course it is, it's one of her Seven Kingdoms. If and 8 year-old girl declares me President of the United States, does that make me so? No, it doesn't. It's essentially treasonous. I realize that they're rebelling against the Lannisters at this stage, but when Dany arrives, he'll either need to kneel or be decimated. Unless Tyrion or Varys negotiates a marriage pact. You may very well be right, I really don't know where that's headed. Either way, she won't just contend herself with having her kingdoms separated.
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Originally posted by Ressti
The North has always been independant, they live in an entirely different climate and deal with different issues, have a different culture.
Independence is not a bad thing. Dany realised that when she gave Yara the right to be Queen if she supported her claim. Same could happen with Jon.
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Dorne has always been independent, not the North. The North does have a slightly different culture, but they've made up part of the Seven Kingdoms since Aegon's time.
Uhm, I don't think Dany made Yara queen. I think she agreed to have her take on the rule of the Iron Islands but I distinctly remember her saying that the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms was not up for negotiation. She also dictated which laws they needed to follow and she wouldn't have been able to do that if she conceded full independance to the IIs.
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Originally posted by Ressti
He didn't choose to come back! lmao They wanted him to come back because he's fearless in his quest to save humanity.
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Member Since: 6/13/2012
Posts: 2,065
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Trying to avoid spoilers this time around before the season start. But hopefully sansa gets killed off.
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Member Since: 8/25/2012
Posts: 30,317
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patri
Well then that just solidifies my point even further then, doesn't it? The face-off will be between Fire Ice, Life & Death. If Jon Snow is Ice, then he is also Death. If Death wins in the end, then the whole story was pointless to begin with.
To be clear, I think it will be an internal struggle between both as JS is half Stark, half Targaryen - yet ALL bastard.
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Jon Snow is not death, stahp, ffffffegerg Jon Snow represent the Northern POV and Daenerys the Southern POV. That's what I mean.
Both ice and fire are elements to be feared, so I can't back you on that.
I don't know if his Targaryen lineage will even become a factor in the main arch of the story. We don't know if GRRM intends to use Jon in that way.
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Again, you're just re-inforcing my point that Daenerys is a wiser, more effective leader because the people she surrounds herself with have more knowledge than those Jon surrounds himself with. Not sure what you're trying to say here that I haven't already?
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No im not. They flocked to her because she has an army and a name. Nobody was thinking of Jon as a ruler when they started backing her. He was a bastard crow, nothing more, nothing less. He took what he had and made the most of out of it. Him and his sister.
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And how begrudgingly did he do so? He was about to kill Sam for even suggesting it. And let's be frank, Jon doing that is nothing like Dany taking on Tyrion as HotQ. If Jon had taken on Ramsay into his entourage/as his first in command, then you could equate the two. Jon would never make common cause with a Lannister or a Bolton or whoever. Full stop.
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Begrudgingly or not, he did it. So there it is.
He can listen to his advisors when he knows that he needs to. And he often did things he didn't want to do for the greater good.
But you're right, it's not the same, cause Roose Bolton betrayed and killed his brother. A brother he loved very much. Tyrion never harmed Dany's family. If Daenerys had a brother she loved and Tyrion had killed him, she would have fed him to her dragons. As would have been her right.
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She chose to be covert because he undermined her the whole time. He underestimated her, he underestimated Ramsay, he underestimated the whole situation. If anything, that whole facet shows that Sansa is capable of turning on him on a dime and keeping info from him.
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He didn't undermine her at all. She was right there and he asked her
Sansa: Did it ever occur to you that I might have some insight?
Jon: You're right.
Sansa: You think he's going to fall into your trap, he won't. He's the one who lays traps.
Jon: He's over-confident.
bla bla bla
Sansa: You don't know him.
Jon: Alright, tell me. What should we do? How do we bring Rickon back?
Sansa: You'll never get him back. .....bla bla bla
Jon: We can't give up on our brother
Sansa: Listen to me, please, he wants you to make a mistake
Jon: Of course he does. What should I do differently?
Sansa: I don't know! Just don't do what he wants you to do!
Then she tells him he should have waited, and he says
Jon: When will we have a larger force? We've pleaded with every house that'll have us. The Blackfish can't help us, we're lucky to have this many men
Sansa: It's not enough!!!!!!!!
Jon: No, it's not enough, it's what we have!
Sansa: .....
fnjerbgkrjgbkrtj She had every opportunity to tell him! He even mentioned the Blackfish, perfect segway. Im screaming at this. I totally forgot. What a mess.
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You may be correct about regular fire but dragonfire is different. It melted the stone at Harrenhal, remember? It burns hotter and more intensely than regular fire. Anyway, I'm sure we'll have the answer to that sooner or later and I don't know that it's particularly relevant to Jon vs. Dany.
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I don't know if dragonfire is different, we shall see. Either way they've demonstrated to be as impervious to fire as she is.
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I would note that Dany being impervious to fire and Jon being absolutely susceptible to fire is also very telling of their importance.
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No. It's not like Jon is without magical abilities. He's actually a warg. But that's in the books, not the shows. He also rose from the dead and that doesn't happen everyday lol. Either way, he has a connection to magic in some way.
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Of course it is, it's one of her Seven Kingdoms. If and 8 year-old girl declares me President of the United States, does that make me so? No, it doesn't. It's essentially treasonous. I realize that they're rebelling against the Lannisters at this stage, but when Dany arrives, he'll either need to kneel or be decimated. Unless Tyrion or Varys negotiates a marriage pact. You may very well be right, I really don't know where that's headed. Either way, she won't just contend herself with having her kingdoms separated.
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Im sorry, but the North has chosen to become independent, that is their right. And anyone that comes in will have to fight them for it.
So Dany has three choices. She will either prepare for war with the North to claim it (stupid, won't be easy to defeat a force that large,even with dragons) or form some sort of alliance with Jon or allow them their independance and pretend it doesn't exist. That I don't see happening. The alliance? Yes.
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Dorne has always been independent, not the North. The North does have a slightly different culture, but they've made up part of the Seven Kingdoms since Aegon's time.
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But I don't think the North ever liked to bend their knees to southern Kings.
Honestly, I don't know how they'll react to Daenerys, cause she got dragons and they're scary as ****, but I don't see them kneeling to a non-Stark anytime soon. Not after all this. I just don't see it. Unless there's a war and I don't think we got time for a war.
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Uhm, I don't think Dany made Yara queen. I think she agreed to have her take on the rule of the Iron Islands but I distinctly remember her saying that the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms was not up for negotiation. She also dictated which laws they needed to follow and she wouldn't have been able to do that if she conceded full independance to the IIs.
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yes, she did say all that, but Yara got the throne to the Iron Islands, so that would make Yara a Queen, if all goes well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw0Evc7JDoQ
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Member Since: 8/25/2012
Posts: 30,317
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Patri im tired, let's take a break
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Member Since: 8/5/2012
Posts: 301
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I want Cersei to survive until the end. After everything she's been through, I feel like we are about to see the REAL her surface. This is only the beginning.
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Member Since: 8/31/2013
Posts: 6,189
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All these paragraphs, feels like I'm back on the asoiaf forums
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Originally posted by Patri
Am I overdoing it?
I get worked up over these things...
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Yes, that last paragraph was really condescending and prickly.
If this is how annoying y'all get over fiction, I don't even want to imagine how arguing real life history must be
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Originally posted by MadMax12
I want Cersei to survive until the end. After everything she's been through, I feel like we are about to see the REAL her surface. This is only the beginning.
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Survive until the end to do what exactly? She's a short term ruler, and she's not having a happy ending and you can quote me on that.
The series might not follow the typical "good guys always win" trope, but the ****** people always get what's coming.
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Member Since: 3/4/2011
Posts: 1,638
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Originally posted by Ressti
Patri im tired, let's take a break
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Lol, I read your post and was mentally forming my rebuttal and then I read this one and thought to myself, "oh, what a great idea". Happy to take this up again at a later date/when there are new developments. Truth is, there are so many question marks at this stage that everything is purely speculative.
I just wanted to point something out that occurred to me when I read your bit about his "connection to magic". Both in the book and in the series, everything that JS does/has happened to him, is repeated somewhere else:
- He killed a white walker, but so have Sam & Meera
- He has a Valyrian steel sword but so do nearly all the big families
- He came back from the dead but so have Beric Dondarrion & LSH
- He can warg but so can Bran & Arya (in the books)
In short, they're all rare, but not unheard of.
Daenerys is the only person to have hatched, grown, controlled and ridden dragons. No one else can boast that.
You see, the point I was trying to make is that JS strikes me as a "false prophet" role, not as a Messiah.
Anyway, let's leave that at that and re-visit once the show starts up again.
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Originally posted by Khal
All these paragraphs, feels like I'm back on the asoiaf forums
Yes, that last paragraph was really condescending and prickly.
If this is how annoying y'all get over fiction, I don't even want to imagine how arguing real life history must be :too funny:v
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Ok guy, that was a rhetorical question, not an attempt to be condescending. I'm capable of way worse than that.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
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Member Since: 3/30/2011
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
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omg essays the spoilers
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 8,751
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Oh my God, I cannot with the spoilers.
I need season 7, RIGHT NOW!
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 8,751
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
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Member Since: 6/24/2012
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ressti
Nope. Fire does not kill White Walkers, it kills wights. White Walkers walked through the flames towards Bran's cave uneffected.
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Fire does kill them, though. Don't you remember when Bran got to the cave for the first time? They were being attacked by White Walkers and The Children threw fire at them so they could die.
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Member Since: 6/24/2012
Posts: 24,708
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Quote:
Originally posted by Style.
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Member Since: 8/25/2012
Posts: 30,317
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Quote:
Originally posted by abrahamjmr
Fire does kill them, though. Don't you remember when Bran got to the cave for the first time? They were being attacked by White Walkers and The Children threw fire at them so they could die.
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Oh yeah, but that was for the wights, im pretty sure. But the White Walkers walked straight through the fire no problem. The same happened in the Hardhome episode.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 42,704
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Quote:
Originally posted by abrahamjmr
Fire does kill them, though. Don't you remember when Bran got to the cave for the first time? They were being attacked by White Walkers and The Children threw fire at them so they could die.
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Pretty sure those were wights. The WWs are the OG/bosses/leaders. They passed thru the flame with ease and weren't harmed at all
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Originally posted by Style.
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The second one
They can do SO MUCH better than that wtf
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