[izzy]

Many of these spoilers are awful tough

I hope half of them are fake.especially the Petyr Baelish one for the last episode.He's pretty much behind everything that has happened in the damn series.

As much as I ship Dany and Jon,some of those spoilers are cringeworthy

[izzy]

Originally posted by YR.

Daenerys is the true queen of Westeros and she will win the war - but i'm still expecting a tragic end. Idk why but her winning is too flawless, it's what the whole world wants and George is not giving it to us that easy. Either she will suffer a lot or she will die in the very end as a hero.

I hope Dany survives in the end and leaves everything with Drogon

[izzy]

Originally posted by Toxicity.

That spoiler about the Night King jacking Viserion from Dany and zombifying him to burn blue flame omg nooo

How would that be even possible. just ...

[Shakira Stan]

Originally posted by Patri

His claim is shaky AT BEST as compared to her's given what we know for certain about him & Dany at this particular point in time.

I agree to a certain extent that the main point of the story is not who will end up on the IT, however, the struggle for power and ruling is clearly at the centre of the saga. In the show at least, more than in the books. The book series is named A Song of Ice and Fire (alluding to the fantasy aspect) while the show opted for the name Game of Thrones (clearly highlighting the importance of the politics & struggle for power). I don't think this is happenstance.

Lineage and birthrights aside, she is also the more appropriate choice for leader. She inspires loyalty, she stands up for the downtrodden and she surrounds herself with advisors who compensate for her shortcomings, thus turning herself from a scared little girl into a fierce, powerful queen. And she has ****ing dragons.

The other guy couldn't command a troupe of like 70 men in an isolated location and context without getting himself murdered. He then eschewed his responsibilities due to a technicality and charged headfirst into a battle he would have died in AGAIN had his half-sister not secured the backup of the Vale after her moron half-brother completely undermined her and ignored her advice. After which, he was given all the glory to then be crowned King in the North by an 8 year old girl.

I mean, if he came back to life, he must have some sort of role to play but when you compre him and Daenerys side by side, I don't see how a pragmatic person could opt for him over her.

Originally posted by Patri

Sansa didn't leave him to die, she was right there with him the whole time because she had the assurance that Littlefinger would come in and save the day after Jon inevitably led them into a hopeless battle. She didn't betray him, she saved him. Well, she saved herself, which in that instance also meant saving him.

I'm personally not convinced that everything is peaches and cream with those two. Sansa has come too far just to allow herself to be second-fiddle to her bastard half-brother/cousin/whatever he is.

As for inspiring loyalty, I fundamentally disagree. He was elected twice. His election to Lord Commander was practically coercive. His election/ascension as King in the North was based on a. a battle he didn't win and b. contrary to rights of succession as Bran is still living and outranks him.

I don't find him level-headed, I find him extremely stubborn and short-sighted. He never addressed the very valid misgivings of the Night's Watch when he proposed allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall. He wasn't able to diffuse the dissension in the ranks and ultimately prevent himself from being murdered. He's not an effective ruler because he's not able to put aside his beliefs to come to a compromise and forge ahead. What's more is that he does not surround himself with advisors that force him to see the other facets of an issue. Yes, he's steadfast, but what does not bend, breaks. Despite all his talk about the importance of banding together to face the common enemy, he is stuck in his own notions of right and wrong and that has been and will continue to be his downfall.

Daenerys may be brash but she is just and she listens to criticism and adjusts her plans of action accordingly. When that old man wanted to sell himself back into slavery because his life was better, she was completely against it. But when she heard his reasoning, she ended up consenting while adding a few stipulations re. length of time and pay that effectively made it an employment contract rather than slavery. In other words, a compromise. Moreover, she appointed Tyrion as HotQ who makes up for her diplomatic shortfalls and heeds his advice in political affairs. Her instinct may be to execute, but she listens to her advisors i/o doing whatever it is she originally wanted.

That's my tuppence anyway.

The truth. I should bookmark these posts just in case someone tries to underestimate the power of Daenerys Targaryen.

[Patri]

Originally posted by Shakira Stan

The truth. I should bookmark these posts just in case someone tries to underestimate the power of Daenerys Targaryen.

Please do. Rain Fire & Blood on her enemies.

PS Another Italo-Montrealer?

[fridayteenage]

the only good leader-y things about dany are factors external to herself - i.e. better/smarter people than her, and dragons.

[lightstheyblindme]

Originally posted by fridayteenage

the only good leader-y things about dany are factors external to herself - i.e. better/smarter people than her, and dragons.

false. did you read the books? dany is constantly contrasted with other leaders to show how different/better she is than others.

a lot of discussion is given in the war of the five kings to how willing Tywin and Robb are to let their own men be killed if it serves a greater purpose. Dany, on the other hand, feels personally responsible for every person who has sworn loyalty to her.

she is also shown to have an out of the box way of looking at situations that often results in brilliant strategic maneuvers (i.e. her acquisition of the unsullied and her freeing yunkai via a slave revolt rather than a prolonged siege)

[♚ PRiNCE HiGH ♚]

wow so much tea I'm drowning in it

[Patri]

Originally posted by fridayteenage

the only good leader-y things about dany are factors external to herself - i.e. better/smarter people than her, and dragons.

Incorrect.

She sees ruling as a responsibility which she takes very seriously and is adamant in covering her weak points by surrounding herself with better/smarter people. Remember the chaos that ensued after she took Meereen? When she said "how am I supposed to rule seven kingdoms if I can't control one city?" or something along those lines. Daenerys executed one of her adoring advisors because he broke the law by killing the Son of the Harpy they had captured. Jon let Sam live with a pseudo-wife and son in Castle Black in direct violation of his vows for all the men to see. (So much for all that honour people are harping on. I seriously don't understand where this adulation comes from )

Anyway, the only other person that showed a genuine interest in learning how to rule besides Daenerys was Tommen right after Joffrey died and he took the throne. Remember Tywin's answer? That good kings listen to their advisors. What does Daenerys do? What does Jon NOT do?

Didn't you all pay attention in English class when they teach you to trace the main themes of a book/story and look for the foreshadowing and ****?

[Destiny]

Patri sis

[fridayteenage]

yes i have read the mediocre books.

no i don't like jon as a leader either, so bye.

[Patri]

Originally posted by Destiny

Patri sis

Am I overdoing it?

I get worked up over these things...

[Iman]

Originally posted by Patri

Incorrect.

She sees ruling as a responsibility which she takes very seriously and is adamant in covering her weak points by surrounding herself with better/smarter people. Remember the chaos that ensued after she took Meereen? When she said "how am I supposed to rule seven kingdoms if I can't control one city?" or something along those lines. Daenerys executed one of her adoring advisors because he broke the law by killing the Son of the Harpy they had captured. Jon let Sam live with a pseudo-wife and son in Castle Black in direct violation of his vows for all the men to see. (So much for all that honour people are harping on. I seriously don't understand where this adulation comes from )

Anyway, the only other person that showed a genuine interest in learning how to rule besides Daenerys was Tommen right after Joffrey died and he took the throne. Remember Tywin's answer? That good kings listen to their advisors. What does Daenerys do? What does Jon NOT do?

Didn't you all pay attention in English class when they teach you to trace the main themes of a book/story and look for the foreshadowing and ****?

Wow, nothing but the truth. I love you rn and I'm so glad there are other people that realize Jon really hasn't done **** but they want him to be king. Pls

[Iman]

many are speculating that either Jon or dany will die or both. The theories are that jon will die in battle with white walkers or beat them and become a king. Also, most are saying dany will die either giving birth to her and Jon's baby or that jon will kill her, which I don't get? Why would her kill her? He would be the worst character in TV history if he did that.

[♚ PRiNCE HiGH ♚]

Originally posted by Patri

Am I overdoing it?

I get worked up over these things...

No absolutely not.

There needs to be RESPEK on the one true Queen's name. Am glad you're here to make sure of that

[Ressti]

It's Fire AND Ice.

The way you guys are talking just shows a lack of perspective. Dany is not going to defeat Jon, Jon is not going to defeat Dany, so why are you arguing about who's more fit to rule? Jon was elected, that's that. The story is pushing for them to become allies, not enemies.

Dany was blessed with better advisors because unlike Jon her claim and name was never questioned. Jon is a "bastard" and was fighting alongside criminals, rapists, thieves, etc for the longest. And the thing about him is that he still surrounds himself with riff raff. Davos was a smuggler, Tormund is a wildling, Sansa is a teenage girl. That's just the hand he was dealt. Dany was gifted dragons, Jon found a direwolf... just one. And yet, both of them ended up in the exact same position, as rulers.

As for her being fireproof... I don't see how that's gonna shield her against the White Walkers, their element is Ice, the cold... Fire doesn't even kill them.

Jon is the only ruler in Westeros that is actually focussing on the real threat so he's pretty much the most important character in the story so far. Because all the others have done is worry about their asses warming that ugly ass throne in Kings Landing. I hope Dany gets her seat and she stops talking about "I want my throne" and actually saddles her dragons and kills some wights. That's all I wanna see.

Anywaaay, as I've said before, Jon is a martyr, a hero, not really King material, but he does what he has to. He's essential, whether you guys are rooting for him or not.

[Ressti]

Benioff & Weiss: Jon’s honorable nature has proven a disadvantage in some regards: a man who plays by the rules will have a harder time defeating men and women who don’t. But Jon’s nature also provides one of his great strengths: his ability to win others to his cause. Men who respected his courage and honesty elected him Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. The Free Folk, who had never before aligned themselves with kneelers, chose to fight for Jon Snow because they believed in him. The lords of the north named him King in the North because they realized he was their last, best chance to survive the wars to come.

[Patri]

Originally posted by Ressti

It's Fire AND Ice.

The way you guys are talking just shows a lack of perspective. Dany is not going to defeat Jon, Jon is not going to defeat Dany, so why are you arguing about who's more fit to rule? Jon was elected, that's that. The story is pushing for them to become allies, not enemies.

So, if you want to talk thematically about Fire AND Ice, they're polar opposites. This is clearly a nod at the duality of nearly everything in that universe; the Dragons & the White Walkers, R'hollor & the Great Other, the Targaryens & the Starks etc etc amen. Ultimately, Fire = Life, Ice = Death. These two elements are clearly not meant to co-exists and that is what the story is ultimately working towards. If Jon Snow is both Ice & Fire, then I take that to represent an internal struggle that plays out over the course of the series. As I had mentioned before, he's obviously central to the story line - not denying that - but to say that he's the hero Westerns needs to lead them in the war against the Others? Absolutely disagree for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts.

As for becoming allies, I'm not certain if that will be the case, at least not right away. Because:
1. GRRM is too twisted to just let two of the most adored characters of the series team up together seamlessly.
2. Dany, as we have seen, will not let the Seven Kingdoms be torn apart or divided. A smart person would kneel and accept wardenship of the North as the last KitN did when Aegon conquered. However, it is extremely doubtful that Jon, who I have proven to not be intelligent in the least, will opt for that.

Originally posted by Ressti

Dany was blessed with better advisors because unlike Jon her claim and name was never questioned. Jon is a "bastard" and was fighting alongside criminals, rapists, thieves, etc for the longest. And the thing about him is that he still surrounds himself with riff raff. Davos was a smuggler, Tormund is a wildling, Sansa is a teenage girl. That's just the hand he was dealt. Dany was gifted dragons, Jon found a direwolf... just one. And yet, both of them ended up in the exact same position, as rulers.

Dany was blessed with better advisors in what sense? Dany's advisors are the downtrodden & exiled

Jorah Mormont - Exiled Slaver
Grey Worm - Ex. slave
Missandei - Ex.slave
Tyrion - A dwarf who comes from a family that was instrumental in impeaching and decimating hers.

It's hardly a golden line-up. The point is that each of them is able to make up for one of her shortcomings. Jorah & Grey Worm are military minds. Missandei has a gift for languages and knowledge of the workings of the upper echelons of society, having served amongst them for nearly her entire life. Tyrion...where to start? Political mind, forward thinking, strategic, knows everything about the workings of the Red Keep and those in power.

Tyrion is actually a perfect example of the differences between Jon & Daenerys. Jon's "honour" would never have made him accept Tyrion's help since he's a Lannister. Daenerys judged him for him, not for his family's actions, and took him on as an advisor/ HotQ.

As for Tormund, Davos, Sansa. Tormund & Davos may be fine for little isolated battles (barely), but what hope/support/expertise can they hope to offer in the war against the white walkers? They couldn't even defeat Ramsay alone. Sansa needed to covertly write to Littlefinger to enlist his support. THEY. WOULD. HAVE. DIED. IF. JON. WERE. LEFT. TO. COMMAND. BY. HIMSELF.

And woah there at "the exact same position". While they might both be rulers, there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in who each of them is ruling. A scattering of Northern families/wildlings. An entire tribe of Dothraki and hundreds of thousands of freed slaves. A mayor and a president are both rulers, but just because you've been a mayor doesn't mean you're ready to be a president.

Originally posted by Ressti

As for her being fireproof... I don't see how that's gonna shield her against the White Walkers, their element is Ice, the cold... Fire doesn't even kill them.

Fire does kill them, not sure what you're trying to say here... Also, dragon fire is much stronger than normal fire.

Originally posted by Ressti

Jon is the only ruler in Westeros that is actually focussing on the real threat so he's pretty much the most important character in the story so far. Because all the others have done is worry about their asses warming that ugly ass throne in Kings Landing. I hope Dany gets her seat and she stops talking about "I want my throne" and actually saddles her dragons and kills some wights. That's all I wanna see.

Anywaaay, as I've said before, Jon is a martyr, a hero, not really King material, but he does what he has to. He's essential, whether you guys are rooting for him or not.

Jon's the only "ruler" in Westerns that even knows of the threat. Daenerys hasn't even gotten there yet, she can't know about the white walkers. Before you can even think about tackling that war, you need to make sure that the rest of the continent is banded together and fighting the common enemy, not amongst each other. That's not going to happen with Jon Snow keeping the North independent and not banding together with the Southern kingdoms. That will happen when Daenerys arrives, takes her Kingdoms and turns North to protect them

Jon's too self-absorbed to be a martyr. If Jon were a martyr, he would have stayed dead and we could all stopped wasting screen time on that dreary place until Dany came to save the day.

I'm not sure what Jon's role will be, but as I said, his being Ice & Fire marks a great conflict. Will he choose life or death?

Originally posted by Ressti

"Their last, best chance"

I think the ultimate shock of the story would be Jon Snow becoming the antagonist. Feels very GRRMesque to "build up" a character so highly while simultaneously sprinkling the narrative with evident contradictions to the so-called honourable nature he allegedly has.

Anyway, a lot of this is my interpretation of the story, based on what we know at this particular point in time. I could very well be mistaken, though I don't think I'm too far off the mark. In short:

- I'm not rooting for Jon Snow
- I don't think Jon Snow is the hero of the story, nor the hero that Westeros needs
- I don't think Jon Snow is qualified to rule over anything, let alone Seven Kingdoms
- I don't see Jon Snow & Daenerys on equal footing in the least. She is far more important, qualified and crucial than he is.
- I think his will ultimately be a choice between life & death, somehow tying into the overall narrative, but that he will initially/majorly clash with Daenerys.

[Iman]

Originally posted by Patri

So, if you want to talk thematically about Fire AND Ice, they're polar opposites. This is clearly a nod at the duality of nearly everything in that universe; the Dragons & the White Walkers, R'hollor & the Great Other, the Targaryens & the Starks etc etc amen. Ultimately, Fire = Life, Ice = Death. These two elements are clearly not meant to co-exists and that is what the story is ultimately working towards. If Jon Snow is both Ice & Fire, then I take that to represent an internal struggle that plays out over the course of the series. As I had mentioned before, he's obviously central to the story line - not denying that - but to say that he's the hero Westerns needs to lead them in the war against the Others? Absolutely disagree for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts.

As for becoming allies, I'm not certain if that will be the case, at least not right away. Because:
1. GRRM is too twisted to just let two of the most adored characters of the series team up together seamlessly.
2. Dany, as we have seen, will not let the Seven Kingdoms be torn apart or divided. A smart person would kneel and accept wardenship of the North as the last KitN did when Aegon conquered. However, it is extremely doubtful that Jon, who I have proven to not be intelligent in the least, will opt for that.



Dany was blessed with better advisors in what sense? Dany's advisors are the downtrodden & exiled

Jorah Mormont - Exiled Slaver
Grey Worm - Ex. slave
Missandei - Ex.slave
Tyrion - A dwarf who comes from a family that was instrumental in impeaching and decimating hers.

It's hardly a golden line-up. The point is that each of them is able to make up for one of her shortcomings. Jorah & Grey Worm are military minds. Missandei has a gift for languages and knowledge of the workings of the upper echelons of society, having served amongst them for nearly her entire life. Tyrion...where to start? Political mind, forward thinking, strategic, knows everything about the workings of the Red Keep and those in power.

Tyrion is actually a perfect example of the differences between Jon & Daenerys. Jon's "honour" would never have made him accept Tyrion's help since he's a Lannister. Daenerys judged him for him, not for his family's actions, and took him on as an advisor/ HotQ.

As for Tormund, Davos, Sansa. Tormund & Davos may be fine for little isolated battles (barely), but what hope/support/expertise can they hope to offer in the war against the white walkers? They couldn't even defeat Ramsay alone. Sansa needed to covertly write to Littlefinger to enlist his support. THEY. WOULD. HAVE. DIED. IF. JON. WERE. LEFT. TO. COMMAND. BY. HIMSELF.

And woah there at "the exact same position". While they might both be rulers, there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in who each of them is ruling. A scattering of Northern families/wildlings. An entire tribe of Dothraki and hundreds of thousands of freed slaves. A mayor and a president are both rulers, but just because you've been a mayor doesn't mean you're ready to be a president.



Fire does kill them, not sure what you're trying to say here... Also, dragon fire is much stronger than normal fire.



Jon's the only "ruler" in Westerns that even knows of the threat. Daenerys hasn't even gotten there yet, she can't know about the white walkers. Before you can even think about tackling that war, you need to make sure that the rest of the continent is banded together and fighting the common enemy, not amongst each other. That's not going to happen with Jon Snow keeping the North independent and not banding together with the Southern kingdoms. That will happen when Daenerys arrives, takes her Kingdoms and turns North to protect them

Jon's too self-absorbed to be a martyr. If Jon were a martyr, he would have stayed dead and we could all stopped wasting screen time on that dreary place until Dany came to save the day.

I'm not sure what Jon's role will be, but as I said, his being Ice & Fire marks a great conflict. Will he choose life or death?



"Their last, best chance"

I think the ultimate shock of the story would be Jon Snow becoming the antagonist. Feels very GRRMesque to "build up" a character so highly while simultaneously sprinkling the narrative with evident contradictions to the so-called honourable nature he allegedly has.

Anyway, a lot of this is my interpretation of the story, based on what we know at this particular point in time. I could very well be mistaken, though I don't think I'm too far off the mark. In short:

- I'm not rooting for Jon Snow
- I don't think Jon Snow is the hero of the story, nor the hero that Westeros needs
- I don't think Jon Snow is qualified to rule over anything, let alone Seven Kingdoms
- I don't see Jon Snow & Daenerys on equal footing in the least. She is far more important, qualified and crucial than he is.
- I think his will ultimately be a choice between life & death, somehow tying into the overall narrative, but that he will initially/majorly clash with Daenerys.

[nuclear]

Originally posted by Patri

So, if you want to talk thematically about Fire AND Ice, they're polar opposites. This is clearly a nod at the duality of nearly everything in that universe; the Dragons & the White Walkers, R'hollor & the Great Other, the Targaryens & the Starks etc etc amen. Ultimately, Fire = Life, Ice = Death. These two elements are clearly not meant to co-exists and that is what the story is ultimately working towards. If Jon Snow is both Ice & Fire, then I take that to represent an internal struggle that plays out over the course of the series. As I had mentioned before, he's obviously central to the story line - not denying that - but to say that he's the hero Westerns needs to lead them in the war against the Others? Absolutely disagree for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts.

As for becoming allies, I'm not certain if that will be the case, at least not right away. Because:
1. GRRM is too twisted to just let two of the most adored characters of the series team up together seamlessly.
2. Dany, as we have seen, will not let the Seven Kingdoms be torn apart or divided. A smart person would kneel and accept wardenship of the North as the last KitN did when Aegon conquered. However, it is extremely doubtful that Jon, who I have proven to not be intelligent in the least, will opt for that.



Dany was blessed with better advisors in what sense? Dany's advisors are the downtrodden & exiled

Jorah Mormont - Exiled Slaver
Grey Worm - Ex. slave
Missandei - Ex.slave
Tyrion - A dwarf who comes from a family that was instrumental in impeaching and decimating hers.

It's hardly a golden line-up. The point is that each of them is able to make up for one of her shortcomings. Jorah & Grey Worm are military minds. Missandei has a gift for languages and knowledge of the workings of the upper echelons of society, having served amongst them for nearly her entire life. Tyrion...where to start? Political mind, forward thinking, strategic, knows everything about the workings of the Red Keep and those in power.

Tyrion is actually a perfect example of the differences between Jon & Daenerys. Jon's "honour" would never have made him accept Tyrion's help since he's a Lannister. Daenerys judged him for him, not for his family's actions, and took him on as an advisor/ HotQ.

As for Tormund, Davos, Sansa. Tormund & Davos may be fine for little isolated battles (barely), but what hope/support/expertise can they hope to offer in the war against the white walkers? They couldn't even defeat Ramsay alone. Sansa needed to covertly write to Littlefinger to enlist his support. THEY. WOULD. HAVE. DIED. IF. JON. WERE. LEFT. TO. COMMAND. BY. HIMSELF.

And woah there at "the exact same position". While they might both be rulers, there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in who each of them is ruling. A scattering of Northern families/wildlings. An entire tribe of Dothraki and hundreds of thousands of freed slaves. A mayor and a president are both rulers, but just because you've been a mayor doesn't mean you're ready to be a president.



Fire does kill them, not sure what you're trying to say here... Also, dragon fire is much stronger than normal fire.



Jon's the only "ruler" in Westerns that even knows of the threat. Daenerys hasn't even gotten there yet, she can't know about the white walkers. Before you can even think about tackling that war, you need to make sure that the rest of the continent is banded together and fighting the common enemy, not amongst each other. That's not going to happen with Jon Snow keeping the North independent and not banding together with the Southern kingdoms. That will happen when Daenerys arrives, takes her Kingdoms and turns North to protect them

Jon's too self-absorbed to be a martyr. If Jon were a martyr, he would have stayed dead and we could all stopped wasting screen time on that dreary place until Dany came to save the day.

I'm not sure what Jon's role will be, but as I said, his being Ice & Fire marks a great conflict. Will he choose life or death?



"Their last, best chance"

I think the ultimate shock of the story would be Jon Snow becoming the antagonist. Feels very GRRMesque to "build up" a character so highly while simultaneously sprinkling the narrative with evident contradictions to the so-called honourable nature he allegedly has.

Anyway, a lot of this is my interpretation of the story, based on what we know at this particular point in time. I could very well be mistaken, though I don't think I'm too far off the mark. In short:

- I'm not rooting for Jon Snow
- I don't think Jon Snow is the hero of the story, nor the hero that Westeros needs
- I don't think Jon Snow is qualified to rule over anything, let alone Seven Kingdoms
- I don't see Jon Snow & Daenerys on equal footing in the least. She is far more important, qualified and crucial than he is.
- I think his will ultimately be a choice between life & death, somehow tying into the overall narrative, but that he will initially/majorly clash with Daenerys.

i can 100% guarantee you will be heavily disappointed with season 7 and 8 and the last two books (if they ever come out).