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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
What is with him and using nuns as an analogy. Does he not get that this is an atheist thread. The only thing in christianity that I support is the literature in the bible and it stops there.
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ikr, it's ridiculous 
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
They are muslim women claiming both 
How can Communion side with muslim women saying it's empowerment when Communion is not a muslim woman ?
Do you subscribe to the logic how can you have an opinion on hijab if you don't wear hijab as well ? |
Oh of course.
They are talking about the side from the Muslim woman who does not feel her choice to wear a hijab as something that oppresses her but that gives her strength.
Siding with the woman is simply taking her mindset at face value, cause her emotion is valid even if not for every Muslim woman.
And I don't know what you are saying to me in that last sentence, sorry.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
Oh of course.
They are talking about the side from the Muslim woman who does not feel her choice to wear a hijab as something that oppresses her but that gives her strength.
Siding with the woman is simply taking her mindset at face value, cause her emotion is valid even if not for every Muslim woman.
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I'm pretty sure I read them claiming pretty affirmatively that it's empowerment, full point.
You're way more coherent than they could be. 
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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I do not even get why comunion is starting this witch hunt. Both Lucas and I explicitly stated that wearing a hijab is a choice in the western world and one that no one else should ever be allowed to make for a woman. The thing we were pondering was whether it could be used to empower women. What is with all this talk about nuns and sex workers and France. you're literally changing the entire god dam thing.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas32
Yes, it's hard to decipher where free choice starts and how to get rid off societal pressure.
That's why it's much easier to look to the muslim world where those things are still legislated because that's an obvious and much more severe place to start.
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Easier, but just for thought, is it always the most severe cases that dictate the whole situation? There is often a mindset of starting small or starting with the areas of least worry and how it migrates to those areas of most dire problems.
Surely there are signs of migrational change even if small.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
That's not a negative point still as I see it.
It's turning a symbol that was used to be abusive to evoke a positive change and reaction. It's literally not a commentary about the image itself but about the cause and in a way giving the image one of change not oppression.
And don't worry your English is fine.
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yeah but no one is worshiping pink triangle after nazis killed gay men for wearing a symbol that was referred as "badge of shame". The LGBT activists later used that symbol to show how nazis mistreated gays in their holocausts, and shaming people who were against freedom of homosexuals as them being the same as nazis were, something that Western world was condemning and fighting against such ideology after WW2 ended.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
I'm pretty sure I read them claiming pretty affirmatively that it's empowerment, full point.
You're way more coherent than they could be. |
Hmm, I think they are speaking of simply western Muslim women who feel empowered are not feeding into an ideal of oppression just for simply wearing a hijab/headscarf because what they face means something to them in connection to it but I could be wrong.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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I think there are merits to both sides of the argument. Here's why:
Wearing a head covering in the face of, let's say, Trump supporters can be empowering to an individual Muslim woman. In her act of defiance, she's asserting her right to follow her values (in this instance, modesty) and walk down a religious path she fully embraces.
In the larger picture however, she's not fully empowered in the sense that, if she chooses to lead a different path, there's a likely chance her religious community may treat her like those Trump supporters treated her when she had a scarf on. Under these circumstances, where she's being ostracized for not wearing the scarf, it becomes oppressive.
So wearing the scarf itself is not empowering or oppressive, it's just a piece of clothing. It's the circumstances surrounding the wearing the determines if it's empowering or oppressive. And funnily enough, it can be both empowering and oppressive at the same time. Isn't that something?
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
yeah but no one is worshiping pink triangle after nazis killed gay men for wearing a symbol that was referred as "badge of shame". The LGBT activists later used that symbol to show how nazis mistreated gays in their holocausts, and shaming people who were against freedom of homosexuals as them being the same as nazis were, something that Western world was condemning and fighting against such ideology after WW2 ended.
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Well, I think the point was simply that the symbol was one of a reclaimed nature at some point, it has since not been used as such as we all know and agree. It's still something that holds bad history of course so to never mention that again would be erasure. In those posters case though it wasn't evoking that same methodology.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
Hmm, I think they are speaking of simply western Muslim women who feel empowered are not feeding into an ideal of oppression just for simply wearing a hijab/headscarf because what they face means something to them in connection to it but I could be wrong.
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That's not my issue. They go around saying people should not say it's oppression since they don't know what muslim woman live through and why they wear it, WHILE, going around saying it's empowerment. So basically doing the thing they don't want people to do
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
They are muslim women claiming both
How can Communion side with muslim women saying it's empowerment when Communion is not a muslim woman ?
Do you subscribe to the logic how can you have an opinion on hijab if you don't wear hijab as well ? |
Who said I'm siding with them?
I support individualism. If a Muslim woman says she will not wear the hijab because it oppresses her, then it oppresses her and no one else gets an opinion on it because her opinion regarding her agency is the only one that matters. But similarly, if a Muslim woman says she feels empowered to wear a hijab, then it empowers her and no one else gets an opinion on it because her opinion regarding her agency is the only one that matters.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Why is the confederate flag such a big problem in the US then? Why can't it be reclaimed by civil rights activists? Why is displaying that flag an issue.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Who said I'm siding with them?
I support individualism. If a Muslim woman says she will not wear the hijab because it oppresses her, then it oppresses her and no one else gets an opinion on it because her opinion regarding her agency is the only one that matters. But similarly, if a Muslim woman says she feels empowered to wear a hijab, then it empowers her and no one else gets an opinion on it because her opinion regarding her agency is the only one that matters.
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Do you really ?
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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But I maintain that in popular practice, wearing a head covering, in the context of following Islam, is pretty oppressive. Because there's an element of fear and compliance that underpins most religious obligations. And wearing a head scarf, in Islam, is a religious obligation.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Why is the confederate flag such a big problem in the US then? Why can't it be reclaimed by civil rights activists? Why is displaying that flag an issue.
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Apparently if you say you believe the flag has a different meaning to you, and say you believe it's a symbol a black and white equality then you could reclaim it
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Why is the confederate flag such a big problem in the US then? Why can't it be reclaimed by civil rights activists? Why is displaying that flag an issue.
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White people are the oppressors in this scenario.
You're misunderstanding the comparison.
If a black man in the South loved his confederate flag and reclaimed it and wanted to show it with pride, then really, you gotta let him do what he wants. But white people - as the oppressors - do not get an opinion. They're not in a position to reclaim something oppressive, as it's not oppressive to them.
Notice how I said Muslim women, because Muslim women are the targets of oppression regarding this item of clothing. A Muslim man's opinion would be irrelevant.
Like it's okay for me as a gay man to not want to be called ******, but another gay man can say he likes the word as something empowering; same with words like queer. However, straight people do not get a voice in this and don't get to reclaim these things.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 31,029
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
But I maintain that in popular practice, wearing a head covering, in the context of following Islam, is pretty oppressive. Because there's an element of fear and compliance that underpins most religious obligations. And wearing a head scarf, in Islam, is a religious obligation.
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Exactly and religion has no geographic boundaries.
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
Why is the confederate flag such a big problem in the US then? Why can't it be reclaimed by civil rights activists? Why is displaying that flag an issue.
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As a Black Southern American I can tell you why from my perspective. Very little Black people want it, and civil rights activists have made no attempt to want to reclaim it.
So it's still that flag in the South that was toted by a lot of racists and now under the guise of being "Southern Pride" by others.
I've seen a few Black people try to say they don't mind it cause it's Southerner pride, but it's not sticking because it was a time for division to a lot of people in the country and we have the American flag which is supposed to mean unity among the country.
Not everything is reclaim worthy or wanted. There's a lot of symbolism that remains terrible and there are things that are reclaimed.
That's all a basis of human emotion on how each community or group feels about symbols that offend them.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
White people are the oppressors in this scenario.
You're misunderstanding the comparison.
If a black man in the South loved his confederate flag and reclaimed it and wanted to show it with pride, then really, you gotta let him do what he wants. But white people - as the oppressors - do not get an opinion. They're not in a position to reclaim something oppressive, as it's not oppressive to them.
Notice how I said Muslim women, because Muslim women are the targets of oppression regarding this item of clothing. A Muslim man's opinion would be irrelevant.
Like it's okay for me as a gay man to not want to be called ******, but another gay man can say he likes the word as something empowering; same with words like queer. However, straight people do not get a voice in this and don't get to reclaim these things.
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But sis, the confederate flag is inherently racist, what the hell ? 
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