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Discussion: Does flopping prevent singers from becoming Legends?
Member Since: 10/12/2002
Posts: 21,317
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cap10Planet
This is where my debate with you ends.
You're using a bunch of anecdote and then dismissing "American Idol singers" as if they are not people or apart of the this generation when they have far more reach than any of the random people you speak of. You're passing your unpopular opinion of as fact, and it just doesn't work here.
And death @ any of those being "footnotes." Please.
You're right about Britney. I'd give you that.
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The fact that the basis for "legend" status is a graphic tee... I mean.. come on ![deadbanana2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/bananas/deadbanana_zps933fcf47.gif)
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Member Since: 6/1/2010
Posts: 65,177
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Member Since: 1/1/2013
Posts: 10,073
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Where the **** is Chimier when you need ha?
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Member Since: 8/3/2012
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iman
Yeah, but we are talking about sales. Hasn't Artpop already outsold MDNA? I mean if that is a flop......
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Right. Because it's completely valid to pit an artists 12th studio album sales 30 years into their career to another artists 3rd album sales 5 years into their career. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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Member Since: 3/1/2014
Posts: 14,803
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Quote:
Originally posted by DivaDown
Right. Because it's completely valid to pit an artists 12th studio album sales 30 years into their career to another artists 3rd album sales 5 years into their career. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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I understand that, but my whole point was that even though MDNA flopped, Madonna is/will always be a legend because of what she achieved before that. Just because it is Madonna's 12th album doesn't mean it is not a flop.
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Member Since: 1/1/2013
Posts: 10,073
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I also want to mention some flops by my other faves that definitely did NAWT stop them from becoming legends.
American Life (2003)
Certification:
Region Certification Sales/shipments
Australia Platinum[122] 70,000
Belgium Gold[142] 15,000
Brazil Gold[116] 50,000
Canada Platinum[101] 100,000
Denmark Gold[143] 20,000
Europe Platinum[112] 1,000,000
France Platinum[113] 300,000
Germany Platinum[144] 200,000
Greece Gold[117] 10,000
Australia Platinum[122] 70,000
Belgium Gold[142] 15,000
Brazil Gold[116] 50,000
Canada Platinum[101] 100,000
Denmark Gold[143] 20,000
Europe Platinum[112] 1,000,000
France Platinum[113] 300,000
Germany Platinum[144] 200,000
Greece Gold[117] 10,000
Hungary Platinum[145] 20,000
Japan Gold[120] 100,000
Netherlands Gold[118] 30,000
Russia Platinum[114] 10,000
Sweden Gold[146] 20,000
Switzerland Platinum[115] 10,000
United Kingdom Platinum[110] 300,000
United States Platinum[95] 1,000,000
Just Whitney (2002)
Certifications:
Region Certification Sales/shipments
France (SNEP)[55] Gold 100,000*
Brazil (ABPD)[56] Gold 50,000*
Switzerland (IFPI Switzerland)[57] Platinum 40,000x
United States (RIAA)[58] Platinum 1,000,000^
Damita Jo (2004) + future albums
Certifications:
Country Certification
Canada Platinum[98]
Japan Gold[99]
Singapore Gold[12]
United Kingdom Silver[101]
United States Platinum[93]
Celine has always been fine (even with "Loved Me Back To Life" considering her promo plan + the hype was minimal). Michael has always been great in this department. Prince is flopping on a daily basis yet his music ***** on lives
The point is, these didn't stop them from being legends nor did it erase their past accomplishments.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheAmerican
I don't see anyone else that young wearing an Aretha, Diana or Stevie Wonder shirt. Haven't yet (do they even make those shirts?)
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That's because John Lennon is also an icon. An icon represents something and so it makes sense to have his likeness on shirts, like Bob Marley, Marilyn etc.
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Posts: 12,270
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Quote:
Originally posted by MCBeth
Where did I say YOU said that? ![huh?](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/7be5c36a.gif) I said you making the assertion that people (the GP) felt this was and that way about an album or an artist is AS VALID AS someone saying that their friends don't know that song, both of which are common on ATRL.
Key word: AS VALID AS. This is a simile, used to compare those two common ATRL lingos.
Oh is that so? I would like to see proof of this tale, thanks!
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What are you talking about? What picture? I am now certain that you definitely have me confused with someone else. Where and when did I say anything about you and pictures? ![huh?](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/7be5c36a.gif) WTF. Literally
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As iHype already posted before me, back then the chart was heavily impacted by Radio and despite the lead single doing well on digital sales, it did nothing to help its performances. I am not going to speak on something that I don't know, so I won't comment on the single performances of the rest of the singles from that era. However, even with the single "success" (I use the word success loosely in this case), Charmbracelet performed better as a whole because it sold more albums in the U.S. and world wide.
For once (and I mean that literally), I agree with. ![@michael.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/micheal_zps45ccf519.gif)
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Again, putting words in people's mouth ![deadbanana2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/bananas/deadbanana_zps933fcf47.gif) I never said the GP said that. And that ATRL analogy makes no sense. even ![toofunny2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny2_zpsb54f2d2d.gif) I'm just saying you said nobody thought that. That's not true. There were people who thought that and they weren't random messageboard users or things like that.
And if you aren't aware of this, now would be the time to learn and realize it's no tale, but the real HIStory of one of your faves
http://articles.philly.com/1995-07-1...-history-album
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/25/bu...marketing.html
The album did a bit better internationally like someone had mentioned in this thread, but overall back then 30 million was the buzzword back then for the album flopping just like people use 25 million as the buzzword for ArtPop flopping
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I'm saying awhile go you kept insisting that I had posted my picture on this site. And I kept telling you I hadn't, but you kept insisting I did ![shutup](images/smilies/shutup.gif) I would think I would know if I posted my picture on this site or not
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Like I said there are different way to look at it. Some people would just use albums, some singles. Some the middle ground or whatever other combination they want. So theres not really much else to say about that
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Member Since: 2/2/2014
Posts: 5,804
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LOL Christina Marķa Aguilera is not a legend but nice try
![](http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/OrangeBangs_Bucket/14e5qmu.gif)
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Member Since: 8/3/2012
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iman
I understand that, but my whole point was that even though MDNA flopped, Madonna is/will always be a legend because of what she achieved before that. Just because it is Madonna's 12th album doesn't mean it is not a flop.
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Going Gold is not a flop for her. Plus, the MDNA Tour made success for the album.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 17,307
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Not sure why this thread turned into a Legend X drag fest
Some people need to get off their high horse and not try and diminish other artists achievements if they don't like them.
Christina is a legend. Deal with it.
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Member Since: 1/1/2013
Posts: 10,073
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Quote:
Originally posted by atrlster
Again, putting words in people's mouth ![deadbanana2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/bananas/deadbanana_zps933fcf47.gif) I never said the GP said that. And that ATRL analogy makes no sense. even ![toofunny2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny2_zpsb54f2d2d.gif) I'm just saying you said nobody thought that. That's not true. There were people who thought that and they weren't random messageboard users or things like that.
And if you aren't aware of this, now would be the time to learn and realize it's no tale, but the real HIStory of one of your faves
http://articles.philly.com/1995-07-1...-history-album
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/25/bu...marketing.html
The album did a bit better internationally like someone had mentioned in this thread, but overall back then 30 million was the buzzword back then for the album flopping just like people use 25 million as the buzzword for ArtPop flopping
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I'm saying awhile go you kept insisting that I had posted my picture on this site. And I kept telling you I hadn't, but you kept insisting I did ![shutup](images/smilies/shutup.gif) I would think I would know if I posted my picture on this site or not
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Like I said there are different way to look at it. Some people would just use albums, some singles. Some the middle ground or whatever other combination they want. So theres not really much else to say about that
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Is that so? ![toofunny3](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny3_zps08814413.gif) So when you're putting comments like these:
" It was most definitely seen as a flop at the time by many people. So to say it wasn't it just not accurate lol"
"History was considered a flop too at the time"
"Oh no, back then people were extremely harsh on Mariah and definitely had a very low opinion on her despite her previous accomplishments."
you aren't referring to the general public? Especially when you keeping saying "people", "they", etc which can only refer to the GP/the average person/etc? If that was not the case, who exactly are you referring to that would justify that HIStory was a "thought of as a flop? ![Doc](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/doc_zpsc886535c.gif) You speak with such confidence over what people felt, what people said, what people thought, etc that lead me to make my original comment which was: "I LOVE how you're able to speak on the behalf of the GP."
It's unfortunately that my analogy made no sense to you but I assure you, it wasn't from my end of the stick.
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ddd;;;;
The first article you posted CLEARLY stated it was not a flop or an underperformance by conventional standards but for Michael, which isn't saying anything.
Quote:
While this new double disc set of hits and new material has done well by conventional music business standards, selling almost 800,000 copies in three weeks, by Jackson's superstar standards it's a dud, just lying there.
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They're clearly comparing the success of HIStory with Thriller:
Quote:
Last week, after just two weeks at No. 1 on the Billboard album chart, ''HIStory" was dislodged by the soundtrack of "Pocahontas" - a far cry indeed from the 31-week run that Jackson's landmark "Thriller" album enjoyed at No. 1 in 1982 and 1983, and not even up to the four-week No. 1 stand of his last (1991) set "Dangerous."
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That would make any album look like a flop.
The second article AGAIN compares the success of HIStory to Thriller which again goes back to what I and another poster were saying pages back.
Quote:
Sony's campaign for the album became a national joke, derided as an indulgent waste of money, hype and time on an artist who could no longer create a blockbuster like 1982's ''Thriller,'' which sold 46 million copies worldwide to become one of the biggest albums ever.
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And in any case, one article or two doesn't mean that an album was thought of as a flop or not.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/al...ook-i-19950810
http://www.allmusic.com/album/histor...i-mw0000123992
The second article, it is clearly evident that the bashing lies within the music itself and the situation Michael surrounded himself with and not actually the commercial performance of the album
What picture are you talking about? I am SO ****ing confused right now. I have absolutely no idea why I would ask you if you posted your picture or not. You & I have never had a good encounter for me to even ask you something like that let alone INSIST that you posted your picture.
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There isn't. I personally don't see the point of using singles only to measure success. Albums or total amount of records sold are better indicators of success, imo. Not to go a bit off topic but artists like JLO who had a huge success with one single and great success with a couple follow-up singles but a total flop album =/= someone who did fine in the single department but did extremely well in the album department (like Beyonce currently is). That's just me though.
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Member Since: 11/25/2008
Posts: 13,160
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Sales/#1s do not make you a legend. Aretha Franklin overall album/single sales are nothing major to write about, Cher's never had a #1 album, and a massive album, and Etta James barely charted on the top Billboard charts/sold well with her singles/albums.
If success was the measure of legendness, X stats would imploded these other female legends. Tons of X songs like Genie In A Bottle, Beautiful, Moves Like Jagger, Feel This Moment, Say Something, etc, etc, etc have went #1 in more countries than anything Mariah Carey's ever released. Those songs, and more have outsold Mariah's whole discography worldwide. Does X's hits being bigger than Mariah's globally not make her a legend? No it doesn't since success comes as the icing in their legacies.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 17,307
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Quote:
Originally posted by D.M.F
Sales/#1s do not make you a legend. Aretha Franklin overall album/single sales are nothing major to write about, Cher's never had a #1 album, and a massive album, and Etta James barely charted on the top Billboard charts/sold well with her singles/albums.
If success was the measure of legendness, X stats would imploded these other female legends. Tons of X songs like Genie In A Bottle, Beautiful, Moves Like Jagger, Feel This Moment, Say Something, etc, etc, etc have went #1 in more countries than anything Mariah Carey's ever released. Those songs, and more have outsold Mariah's whole discography worldwide. Does X's hits being bigger than Mariah's globally not make her a legend? No it doesn't since success comes as the icing in their legacies.
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Pretty Much.
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Member Since: 11/25/2008
Posts: 13,160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toysoldier99
Not sure why this thread turned into a Legend X drag fest
Some people need to get off their high horse and not try and diminish other artists achievements if they don't like them.
Christina is a legend. Deal with it.
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Let them know. The likes of the queen of all media, the new Dick Clark, and the new king of pop calling X a legend should be enough to tell these trolls that they're lying to themselves about Legend X.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 43,104
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Mariah has nothing left to prove. She can flop and it's okay.
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Member Since: 8/5/2006
Posts: 63,266
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They should peak the legendary status before flopping ![eli's_rhythm](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/eli_zps0932edf9.gif)
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Member Since: 3/1/2014
Posts: 13,632
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vine101
No, an artist who's never had a bump on the road or underperformance probably doesn't exist. "Flopping" then recovering, shows that they truly are legends who can't be stopped.
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A very intelligent reply.
Totally agree with that!
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Posts: 12,270
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Quote:
Originally posted by MCBeth
Is that so? ![toofunny3](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny3_zps08814413.gif) So when you're putting comments like these:
" It was most definitely seen as a flop at the time by many people. So to say it wasn't it just not accurate lol"
"History was considered a flop too at the time"
"Oh no, back then people were extremely harsh on Mariah and definitely had a very low opinion on her despite her previous accomplishments."
you aren't referring to the general public? Especially when you keeping saying "people", "they", etc which can only refer to the GP/the average person/etc? If that was not the case, who exactly are you referring to that would justify that HIStory was a "thought of as a flop? ![Doc](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/doc_zpsc886535c.gif) You speak with such confidence over what people felt, what people said, what people thought, etc that lead me to make my original comment which was: "I LOVE how you're able to speak on the behalf of the GP."
It's unfortunately that my analogy made no sense to you but I assure you, it wasn't from my end of the stick.
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ddd;;;;
The first article you posted CLEARLY stated it was not a flop or an underperformance by conventional standards but for Michael, which isn't saying anything.
They're clearly comparing the success of HIStory with Thriller:
That would make any album look like a flop.
The second article AGAIN compares the success of HIStory to Thriller which again goes back to what I and another poster were saying pages back.
And in any case, one article or two doesn't mean that an album was thought of as a flop or not.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/al...ook-i-19950810
http://www.allmusic.com/album/histor...i-mw0000123992
The second article, it is clearly evident that the bashing lies within the music itself and the situation Michael surrounded himself with and not actually the commercial performance of the album
What picture are you talking about? I am SO ****ing confused right now. I have absolutely no idea why I would ask you if you posted your picture or not. You & I have never had a good encounter for me to even ask you something like that let alone INSIST that you posted your picture.
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There isn't. I personally don't see the point of using singles only to measure success. Albums or total amount of records sold are better indicators of success, imo. Not to go a bit off topic but artists like JLO who had a huge success with one single and great success with a couple follow-up singles but a total flop album =/= someone who did fine in the single department but did extremely well in the album department (like Beyonce currently is). That's just me though.
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The essay ![toofunny2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny2_zpsb54f2d2d.gif) You can twist those articles as much as you want, but they state what I've said, that there were people out there who viewed that album as a flop. The people who wrote these articles aren't people? One of the articles even mangles The King of Pop into something else. And they aren't the only 2 articles in the world to call it a flop ![toofunny2](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/faces/toofunny2_zpsb54f2d2d.gif) Again, whether you think it deserves to be viewed as a flop or not not is a different discussion
Now you don't remember ![Bibliotheque](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/biblio_zps23dff242.gif) And I think we were okay at first, but I always knew something was off about you when you kept insisting upon that and I kept denying that . Like I said I'll remember if I posted my picture or not lol
Like I said, there are different ways of looking at it. I get where you're coming from your JLO analogy and I guess to me, the whole debate between Bionic/CB/Lotus/Glitter reminded me a bit of what's going on with people here debating which is more successful between the new Avril Lavigne album, Lotus, and Britney Jean. It's like, okay even if someone finds a way to make one seem marginally better than the other, at the end of the day, they all still didn't do well ![rip](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRLSmilies/rip_zpsec10ede9.gif)
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 7,633
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No. It prevents them from becoming over-exposed. There's always time to make a comeback.
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