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Poll: Is it hypocritical to have 'Dope' and 'MJH' both on ARTPOP?
View Poll Results: Was it hypocritical to leave Mary Jane Holland on ARTPOP?
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Yes, it still glamourises the drug
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42 |
45.65% |
No, it shows her journey
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50 |
54.35% |
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 30,225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Because this is about Gaga and the potential hypocrisy of glamourising drugs and then singing about how they're actually bad for you. I don't approve of Rihanna or Miley's drug use and how they glamourise it to their younger, more impressionable fans either. But that's an entirely separate issue. The discussion of this thread is whether or not what Gaga did with MJH and Dope was hypocritical. I don't approve of Miley and Rihanna's public drug use, but at least they're consistent with it and don't say "do it, actually don't." There's a consistent message of "IDGAF" and not a mixed-message that could be perceived as hypocritical.
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I don't think she's trying to make a statement or message with these songs though. She's not trying to cater to people or be appropriate, this is just her own story. It's her own art that she wrote about her own experiences. Listen to the two videos posted in this thread, the Sirius XM Track by Track commentary one is a bit more detailed. It's just what she experienced over the past few years.
MJH is about how one night, she didn't want to be Lady Gaga and she just wanted to go out and have fun while being under the radar. She died her hair brown and went out in Amsterdam, smoking a ton of weed, etc. Then she kinda fell into a bad habit of smoking a ton of weed, both to numb her anxiety and physical pain from her hip. She was kinda detaching herself from everything. Dope is about the aftermath of all of that, when she kinda hit rock bottom and realized what it had done to both her and her family/friends.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by Penny.
i deleted that part cos i realized how rude it was so i apologize for that
i shouldnt have said it
i will say im 18 & have been thru my share of drugs & by no means was it a song that led me that way
i still smoke mj now but its the only "drug" i do anymore & i use it for health reasons
mj is only a "gateway" drug becos no one just starts off snorting coke but that doesnt mean anyone who smokes will turn into a drug addict
obviously we disagree here but i dont think gaga did anything wrong
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Fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree. It'll never single-handedly be a Gaga song that will make teens think "I want to try marijuana" but I do think you're underestimating how impressionable teenagers are.
Over time, people make up their opinions based on their circumstances and what they hear in the media. That's why growing up, you're bombarded with information from your school and parents to not do drugs. A lot of people will experiment, and it's because of what they've been exposed to. There's a scene in 'Project X' where they smash open a garden gnome full of pills and everyone RUNS to grab an ecstasy pill. There are scenes in 'Skins' where people do drugs. Every second song on the radio is "I got drunk and woke up with a hangover and then we did it all again. Let's get smashed and slizzard and party."
Everything teenagers get exposed to in the media regarding drugs and alcohol can affect their beliefs and positions on the matter. I have friends from high school who have really strong convictions when it comes to drugs, they've never even smoked marijuana and they've all finished university and have full time jobs. I also have (or had) another friend who I haven't seen in years because she's apparently a meth-addict now. That was her choice. She's done that to herself. But at some point in her teenage years, she was desensitised to the dangers of drugs because they were glamourised and she wanted to experiment. She started smoking weed at 13-14, whereas the rest of us were around 17.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissedTheTrain
I don't think she's trying to make a statement or message with these songs though. She's not trying to cater to people or be appropriate, this is just her own story. It's her own art that she wrote about her own experiences. Listen to the two videos posted in this thread, the Sirius XM Track by Track commentary one is a bit more detailed. It's just what she experienced over the past few years.
MJH is about how one night, she didn't want to be Lady Gaga and she just wanted to go out and have fun while being under the radar. She died her hair brown and went out in Amsterdam, smoking a ton of weed, etc. Then she kinda fell into a bad habit of smoking a ton of weed, both to numb her anxiety and physical pain from her hip. She was kinda detaching herself from everything. Dope is about the aftermath of all of that, when she kinda hit rock bottom and realized what it had done to both her and her family/friends.
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Exactly but like I said before, their ordering in the track-listing doesn't mean that people are always going to listen to them sequentially. They're going to listen to them independently and when a lot of her fans listen to 'Mary Jane Holland' they're going to do so without thinking of the meaning of 'Dope.' If she came to the conclusion that drugs are bad, that's the message that she should convey to her fans. I just think it's hypocritical to say "drugs are awesome! But don't do them!" to your fans. Even though it's incredibly, incredibly honest.
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Member Since: 4/12/2012
Posts: 8,550
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How is it hypocritical? Weed isn't a horrible drug..
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 5,500
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She isn't glamorizing grugs whatsoever, if anything she's saying "Sure, Drugs are fun and games for a while, but then..." in putting Dope directly after MJH. The argument that MJH is glamorizing Drug-Usage is completely wrong, it's simply presenting it how it seemed like a glamorous and amazing thing to her at first (as well as many teenagers) and then Dope is the reality of the situation.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALΞX
How is it hypocritical? Weed isn't a horrible drug..
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It's a gateway drug though.
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Member Since: 12/11/2008
Posts: 9,543
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Nope, they are just songs. Not the big deal.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 13,761
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would you critic a drug addict if you yourself were not a drug addict?
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheCheetahwings
She isn't glamorizing grugs whatsoever, if anything she's saying "Sure, Drugs are fun and games for a while, but then..." in putting Dope directly after MJH. The argument that MJH is glamorizing Drug-Usage is completely wrong, it's simply presenting it how it seemed like a glamorous and amazing thing to her at first (as well as many teenagers) and then Dope is the reality of the situation.
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Oh ffs. How many times do I have to explain this? I feel like a broken record. Just because they follow each other on the record doesn't mean that listeners will ALWAYS listen to them sequentially. I know I rarely listen to an album right through. I choose the song I feel like listening to. As soon as Mary Jane Holland finishes playing on someone's iPod or iTunes, there's no guarantee they're going to follow it by listening to Dope and process the story she's trying to tell.
And yes. Yes it does. Singing about marijuana glamourises its consumption. The same way Rihanna's Instagram glamourises it. The same Miley Cyrus smoking on-stage at the MTV EMAs glamourises it. Saying MJH doesn't glamourise marijuana is, quite simply, just not true.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 30,225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Exactly but like I said before, their ordering in the track-listing doesn't mean that people are always going to listen to them sequentially. They're going to listen to them independently and when a lot of her fans listen to 'Mary Jane Holland' they're going to do so without thinking of the meaning of 'Dope.' If she came to the conclusion that drugs are bad, that's the message that she should convey to her fans. I just think it's hypocritical to say "drugs are awesome! But don't do them!" to your fans. Even though it's incredibly, incredibly honest.
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Eh true, but the thing is, I don't think she's trying to convey a message to her fans with these songs. She's just writing about her life experiences and telling the story of what she's experienced. She likes to make her albums as cohesive works, so it makes sense that she'd have them both like that.
In interviews I'm pretty sure she has said something along the lines of how people don't think you can get addicted to weed, but you can, and just that people should be careful. For example, someone might have a song on an album about going out and drinking/having fun, but its not like they'd have one on there too saying that it's cool to drink all day every day. (That's the habit she fell into with weed, smoking all day every day).
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 3,272
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How could anyone vote 'Yes' to this
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by bluth
would you critic a drug addict if you yourself were not a drug addict?
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hahahahaha...seriously though, I was, so I guess I can.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 30,225
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheCheetahwings
She isn't glamorizing grugs whatsoever, if anything she's saying "Sure, Drugs are fun and games for a while, but then..." in putting Dope directly after MJH. The argument that MJH is glamorizing Drug-Usage is completely wrong, it's simply presenting it how it seemed like a glamorous and amazing thing to her at first (as well as many teenagers) and then Dope is the reality of the situation.
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I agree. Like with alcohol, someone might have a song about going out to a party and drinking/having fun, but they wouldn't have one saying it's cool to drink all day every day.....most people know that's not okay. She's basically saying the same thing with weed, to be careful, because she started smoking all day every day and it took a toll on her.
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Member Since: 3/6/2014
Posts: 10,805
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Maybe it's a difference of opinion but I feel Amy Winehouse had a much more mature audience and teenagers who did listen (or do listen) to her music would be niche. Gaga's reach is much more widespread. Not to mention Amy Winehouse was simply a walking poster-child for why you shouldn't do drugs. You're right, she sang about her battles of using and leaving drugs and how people around her requested that she go to rehab, but she never sang a song like "MARY...JANE...HEROIN." And the fact that she had a song about not going to rehab and then died because of her problems with drugs and alcohol sort of highlights the fact that she should have taken their advice and gone to rehab. I don't really listen to Amy's music that much but I don't know if she ever had a song that glamourised recreational drug use and experimentation. And if she did, I don't think it would have reached as many teenagers as MJH does.
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Then Is it OK writing a song about drugs if you die because of it?
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissedTheTrain
For example, someone might have a song on an album about going out and drinking/having fun, but its not like they'd have one on there too saying that it's cool to drink all day every day. (That's the habit she fell into with weed, smoking all day every day).
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissedTheTrain
I agree. Like with alcohol, someone might have a song about going out to a party and drinking/having fun, but they wouldn't have one saying it's cool to drink all day every day.....most people know that's not okay. She's basically saying the same thing with weed, to be careful, because she started smoking all day every day and it took a toll on her.
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These are both really, really great comments. Thank you for having a mature conversation and not being one of those people who says "what are you, 12?" of simply posts a lot of the " " gif. I've enjoyed it, and these comments have made me think.
Even if it is recreational use though, which it started off as, I don't know if it's something that should be promoted to the general public because there are a lot of younger fans who are incredibly impressionable. It's not just Gaga though. It's Rihanna and Miley as well. Someone like Taylor Swift is a great role model regarding this issue. Because even if it is just experimentation and not addiction or frequent use, like I said before, experimentation is something you don't want to promote and something you want to push back as far as possible. The brain isn't fully developed until like 20 (I think?) so any amount of experimentation can be damaging, and the younger you are, the worse it is. You want to prevent experimentation for as long as possible because experimentation at a young age leads to recreational use at a young age which can lead to experimentation of other drugs, recreational use of other drugs, and then addiction. And not just a mental addiction to a drug like weed, but an actual physical dependency to drugs that are physically addictive like coke, heroin, meth, etc.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kayhan
Then Is it OK writing a song about drugs if you die because of it?
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Just because they're both about drugs doesn't mean they convey the same message. What i'm saying is 'Mary Jane Holland' glamourises smoking marijuana, which can potentially inspire fans to experiment with the drug and subsequently with worse drugs that they otherwise mightn't have. 'Rehab' is about a girl singing about her father desperately wanting her to go to rehab. She later died because of her drug and alcohol problems and the posthumous response to the song is "well...she probably should have listened to him." They convey different messages based on what they're saying and the context in which we listen to them. Just because they're both about drugs doesn't mean they're the same.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 30,225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
These are both really, really great comments. Thank you for having a mature conversation and not being one of those people who says "what are you, 12?" of simply posts a lot of the " " gif. I've enjoyed it, and these comments have made me think.
Even if it is recreational use though, which it started off as, I don't know if it's something that should be promoted to the general public because there are a lot of younger fans who are incredibly impressionable. It's not just Gaga though. It's Rihanna and Miley as well. Someone like Taylor Swift is a great role model regarding this issue. Because even if it is just experimentation and not addiction or frequent use, like I said before, experimentation is something you don't want to promote and something you want to push back as far as possible. The brain isn't fully developed until like 20 (I think?) so any amount of experimentation can be damaging, and the younger you are, the worse. You want to prevent experimentation for as long as possible because experimentation at a young age leads to recreational use at a young age which can lead to experimentation of other drugs, recreational use of other drugs, and then addiction. And not just a mental addiction to a drug like weed, but an actual physical dependency to drugs that are physically addiction like coke, heroin, meth, etc.
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Oh my pleasure, I like having mature conversations on here....it's a bit annoying when people start talking down to each other and posting s
I get what you're saying, that's definitely a good point. I guess Gaga just prefers to be honest about that stuff. In her Anderson Cooper interview from 2011 she said:
"I smoke a lot of pot when I write music. So I'm not gonna sugarcoat it for 60 Minutes that, you know, I'm some like sober human being, because I'm not. I drink a lot of whiskey and I smoke weed when I write....I don't do it a lot, because its not good for my voice. I don't want to encourage kids to do drugs, but when you ask me about the sociology of fame and what artists do wrong, what artists do wrong is they lie. And I don't lie. I'm not a liar. I've built good will with my fans, they know who I am, and I'm just like them in so many ways."
I guess she just wants to be real about that stuff, and doesn't really care about trying to lie for the sake of setting a good example in that particular way.
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Member Since: 3/6/2014
Posts: 10,805
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Just because they're both about drugs doesn't mean they convey the same message. What i'm saying is 'Mary Jane Holland' glamourises smoking marijuana, which can potentially inspire fans to experiment with the drug and subsequently with worse drugs that they otherwise mightn't have. 'Rehab' is about a girl singing about her father desperately wanting her to go to rehab. She later died because of her drug and alcohol problems and the posthumous response to the song is "well...she probably should have listened to him." They convey different messages based on what they're saying and the context in which we listen to them. Just because they're both about drugs doesn't mean they're the same.
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I didnt say anything about Rehab though. I am saying wouldnt it be hypocritical(in your words) thing if she died after she released the song?
There are many worse songs than MJH, by the way. MJH should be in the last of that list.
I think young generation is not that stupid actually. People smoked cigarettes without knowing its effects on body and World got its way throughout the years.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissedTheTrain
Oh my pleasure, I like having mature conversations on here....it's a bit annoying when people start talking down to each other and posting s
I get what you're saying, that's definitely a good point. I guess Gaga just prefers to be honest about that stuff. In her Anderson Cooper interview from 2011 she said:
"I smoke a lot of pot when I write music. So I'm not gonna sugarcoat it for 60 Minutes that, you know, I'm some like sober human being, because I'm not. I drink a lot of whiskey and I smoke weed when I write....I don't do it a lot, because its not good for my voice. I don't want to encourage kids to do drugs, but when you ask me about the sociology of fame and what artists do wrong, what artists do wrong is they lie. And I don't lie. I'm not a liar. I've built good will with my fans, they know who I am, and I'm just like them in so many ways."
I guess she just wants to be real about that stuff, and doesn't really care about trying to lie for the sake of setting a good example in that particular way.
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True. That quote is probably more telling than anything else in this thread. She is incredibly honest, but at the same time she's also incredibly caring and loving of her fans, not to mention concerned for their well-being. You only have to look at the fact that the BTW Foundation aims to help people suffering with addiction. I guess that's where my questions of "is it hypocritical?" comes from. Because Miley and Rihanna seem to radiate this IDGAF attitude 100%, and then Gaga does too by saying "I'm completely honest with my fans, that's the most important thing" but then she also does give a **** because she's so involved and concerned with their health and well-being, all the while she's completely oblivious to the fact that she herself might currently be inspiring the experimentation that will potentially lead to future addictions. Does that make any sense? It's great to be honest, but I think she should also be more consistent with the image she portrays to her fans, because even though she's come full circle, many of her fans are at 0 degrees and are only just starting to experiment.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 5,500
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Oh ffs. How many times do I have to explain this? I feel like a broken record. Just because they follow each other on the record doesn't mean that listeners will ALWAYS listen to them sequentially. I know I rarely listen to an album right through. I choose the song I feel like listening to. As soon as Mary Jane Holland finishes playing on someone's iPod or iTunes, there's no guarantee they're going to follow it by listening to Dope and process the story she's trying to tell.
And yes. Yes it does. Singing about marijuana glamourises its consumption. The same way Rihanna's Instagram glamourises it. The same Miley Cyrus smoking on-stage at the MTV EMAs glamourises it. Saying MJH doesn't glamourise marijuana is, quite simply, just not true.
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People keep referencing the order of the songs on the record, because the question is "s it hypocritical to have 'Dope' and 'MJH' both on ARTPOP?". So of course were going to reference both songs. Gaga's intentions are fairly obvious, so I have no idea how you don't see it. The order of the songs are COMPLETELY RELEVANT.
Your argument is completely ridiculous. You can't say "Oh well there's no guarantee someone will listen to both in order..." because we could say the exact same thing about Dope "Oh well, someone may listen to Dope and not MJH!" It has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand, which is "Is it hypocritical to have 'Dope' and 'MJH' both on ARTPOP". The answer is simple:
No, because the songs are meant to be listen back to back (hell, Gaga even has said the album is meant to be listened in order). it would only be "hypocritical" if Gaga were to release Dope FIRST and then come back and release MJH on the next record or something. Gaga can't control how her music is listened to, but her intentions are clear and are most certainly NOT hypocritical.
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