I understood your previous post, but it's a very generalized statement. Not here for that. But you added to my point with your above post. Avril Lavigne is a good example. Because Avril Lavigne has pink and green streaks in her hair with a youthful demeanor, she's immediately written off by critics -- and people in general -- before an album is even released. Avril Lavigne sings as good as -- arguably better than -- Adele, is more versatile than Adele, and is overall more vocally interesting than Adele, but is not respected as much as Adele. Why is that? Because she's not in Oscar De La Renta gowns at awards with a mature, womanly image? Why is Taylor Swift's "Speak Now" more critically acclaimed than Avril Lavigne's "Goodbye Lullaby?" These are the questions I want people to ask.
...Vin
I don't - I legit don't - think that Avril could handle many of the tracks on 21. Have you listened to the album? I'm not the biggest fan - it's very Starbucks, and lacks the true grit and wit of a Back to Black or It's Not Me, It's You - but, just vocally speaking - I cannot envision a world where Avril would pull off an I'll Be Waiting or One and Only.
He Won't Go, maybe.
And Taylor Swift is one of the best songwriters of her generation. Listen to Speak Now (the album) for all the proof you need. I won't hear anything else about it.
I can understand using different parameters for pop and indie acts, so I won't argue there.
But if that's how you feel, why do you seem to look down on pop acts that create finely crafted pop tunes? I honestly think artist like Ke$ha should be commended, because writing a song with strong hooks and great melodies that are loved by millions is a great achievement.
Your perspective isn't a popular one, but i understand and agree with much of what you said (minus specific artist criticism). I also agree with Vin.
Critics, albeit (usually) far more educated on and immersed in the medium they critique, are still human beings speaking from the confines of their opinion. Simple as that. But to answer the question posed, it's necessary to first point out that there factors more relevant to success than critical acclaim, especially if success is being defined as commercial sales and widespread fame. Marketing, image, sound, relatability, and the subjective quality of each are much more important.
Another thing to consider is that critics, due to their intense immersion within the medium they critique, almost always have a greater ability to appreciate a wider array of styles than the general public does at any given time. Still, their opinion is just that and the pubic is under no obligation to act accordingly.
This is where we'll disagree again. Just cause an artist had very little to do with the crafting of a song doesn't mean they shouldn't be credited for it. Now we're going a bit offtopic again.
I think that's fascinating!
Look at my favorite pop star - Kylie.
She had no had in the actual creation and construction of her biggest hits - I Should Be So Lucky, Better the Devil You Know, Confide in Me, Can't Get You Out of My Head - but no one would have done them like her.
So I do agree! I just didn't know that's what you were arguing.
Well, most pop acts these days DON'T create their finely crafted pop tunes.
Let's see. Quality excepted (because that's subjective), how many POP stars are active authors in their music?
Gaga.
BEP/Will.I.Am.
Adele.
Taylor.
Bey.
Kanye.
Jay.
Chris Brown.
Care to explain why you excluded Kesha from that list?
Quote:
Originally posted by Vin
I understood your previous post, but it's a very generalized statement. Not here for that. But you added to my point with your above post. Avril Lavigne is a good example. Because Avril Lavigne is a blonde with pink and green streaks in her hair with a youthful demeanor, she's immediately written off by critics -- and people in general -- before an album is even released. Avril Lavigne sings as good as -- arguably better than -- Adele, is more versatile than Adele, and is overall more vocally interesting than Adele, but is not respected as much as Adele. Why is that? Because she's not in Oscar De La Renta gowns at awards with a mature, womanly image? Why is Taylor Swift's "Speak Now" more critically acclaimed than Avril Lavigne's "Goodbye Lullaby?" These are the questions I want people to ask.
...Vin
Not trying to bring Britney into this, Just an example.
Blackout is rated lower than Circus by metacritic but blackout has been praised and most people consider it way better than circus,could it be the critics looked down on Blackout and ignored the quality of the music because Britney at the time of blackout was a crazy mess? So image also influences critics.
I find it perplexing that Avril is even being brought up because it doesn't seem that the public or the critics are here for her. Her music, as of late, is not universally liked. That just means that the quality isn't there to most people.
She had no had in the actual creation and construction of her biggest hits - I Should Be So Lucky, Better the Devil You Know, Confide in Me, Can't Get You Out of My Head - but no one would have done them like her.
So I do agree! I just didn't know that's what you were arguing.
Glad we agree!
Quote:
Originally posted by cheap
Care to explain why you excluded Kesha from that list?
Probably because her biggest hits weren't written by her.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cap10Planet
I find it perplexing that Avril is even being brought up because it doesn't seem that the public or the critics are here for her. Her music, as of late, is not universally like. That just means that the quality isn't there to most people.
She had no had in the actual creation and construction of her biggest hits - I Should Be So Lucky, Better the Devil You Know, Confide in Me, Can't Get You Out of My Head - but no one would have done them like her.
So I do agree! I just didn't know that's what you were arguing.
I understood your previous post, but it's a very generalized statement. Not here for that. But you added to my point with your above post. Avril Lavigne is a good example. Because Avril Lavigne is a blonde with pink and green streaks in her hair with a youthful demeanor, she's immediately written off by critics -- and people in general -- before an album is even released. Avril Lavigne sings as good as -- arguably better than -- Adele, is more versatile than Adele, and is overall more vocally interesting than Adele, but is not respected as much as Adele. Why is that? Because she's not in Oscar De La Renta gowns at awards with a mature, womanly image? Why is Taylor Swift's "Speak Now" more critically acclaimed than Avril Lavigne's "Goodbye Lullaby?" These are the questions I want people to ask.
...Vin
I think she's not as respected as Adele because of... hm... this?
And as far as I know critics like some older Avril stuff, don't they?
And Avril is more versatile than Adele? A better singer than or even as good as Adele? Really?
Ms. Avril has been doing the same "pop-rock/just don't give a ****/anti-Britney" **** since 2002, and that's why she's flopping in 2011. And she's not a very good singer at all.
People didn't write her off before her album was released. She released mediocrity, and no one responded.
She had no had in the actual creation and construction of her biggest hits - I Should Be So Lucky, Better the Devil You Know, Confide in Me, Can't Get You Out of My Head - but no one would have done them like her.
So I do agree! I just didn't know that's what you were arguing.
This song is a true example of pop music production that must be praised. It has such a sultry but infectious vibe.
Because their music is not as acessible as Britney's, or Gaga's, for example.
Perfectly phrased. And more and more low-rent, overly accessible mindless music is catching on, and it is hard for something that isn't instantly and simplistically ear-catching to get any shine. Also, of course music industry politics plays a BIG role in this situation
Well, this days i think it doesn't really matter if a song or artist is critically acclaimed, only if you're a indie rock band. Pop music will always be on the lower status, and people will always dig it more.
Did you sleep on the wrong side? I'm catchin' a bad vibe.
Right? But actually go back and listen to the song - break it down, structurally. Where are the melodies? Where are the hooks? How does the chorus only pop up once until it gets to the bridge? And then the song goes to that Timbo rap, and then just FADES OUT.
Like, that's a comeback single? It's audacious, that's for sure.
I don't - I legit don't - think that Avril could handle many of the tracks on 21. Have you listened to the album? I'm not the biggest fan - it's very Starbucks, and lacks the true grit and wit of a Back to Black or It's Not Me, It's You - but, just vocally speaking - I cannot envision a world where Avril would pull off an I'll Be Waiting or One and Only.
He Won't Go, maybe.
And Taylor Swift is one of the best songwriters of her generation. Listen to Speak Now (the album) for all the proof you need. I won't hear anything else about it.
Yes, I listened to "21" and "Born This Way" and "Pink Friday." I don't go in on artists without hearing the product first because, like you, I hold the art of critique to a high standard.
Quote:
Originally posted by cheap
Blackout is rated lower than Circus by metacritic but blackout has been praised and most people consider it way better than circus,could it be the critics looked down on Blackout and ignored the quality of the music because Britney at the time of blackout was a crazy mess?
Absolutely. You stated the point that I wanted another member to post other than myself. And that point is IMAGE. A large majority of what a critic is critiquing is image. I would even go as far to say that a critic is critiquing the image before the product is available, whether it be an album or movie. Lindsay Lohan and Natalie Portman could have delivered the exact same performance in "Black Swan," but I'd put money on the Natalie Portman version of "Black Swan" being higher rated and more critically acclaimed than the alternate reality Lindsay Lohan version of "Black Swan." Because it's all about that image. Avril has pink and green streaks. Ke$ha subject matter revolves around drinking and degrading boys. Britney Spears was going through a public breakdown. Critics compound these images and form judgements and then add those judgements when critiquing the product, which is unprofessional, but very common. And that's why "Circus" is higher rated than "Blackout." And that's why "Speak Now" is higher rated than "Goodbye Lullaby." And that's why "21" is higher rated than...
But it's become a thing for people to get into the non-sexy girls of the moment. That's why people STAY posting about how much they love Adele but haven't even thought about looking into similar music for equal quality. That way people can say they like "real" music with "real" talent, while Adele sits on their playlists with all the many untalented pop stars they really like