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Poll: Which gender has more freedom of expression?
View Poll Results: Who has more freedom of expression in western society?
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Men
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57 |
39.86% |
Women
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73 |
51.05% |
It's about equal
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13 |
9.09% |
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 6,630
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Quote:
Originally posted by brndksk
There is a prevailing kind of feminism, however, which wants to focus entirely on woman while blaming everything on patriarchy... not only is this counter-productive but it is also serves to deny us all the serious and existential debate about gender which we should be having.
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Translation for your post: "Feminists should just shut the **** up"
Quote:
Originally posted by Repo
Literally the definition of feminism, for one?
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No.
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Member Since: 6/28/2010
Posts: 7,399
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Quote:
Originally posted by that G.U.Y.
Thats not the prevailing feminist thought. That is the facet you disagree with, but definitely is not the majority.
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It's certainly the strand of feminist that I encounter most often... feminists who are so fixated with statistics and positive discrimination that they have completely lost touch with what feminism should be trying to achieve.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeymoon
I understand that you are trying to bring the issue into context, but you are forgetting the countless countries and systems where women are the absolute pits of society. Men and women around the world do not face equal and/or comparable systematic oppression and claiming so would be absurd.
Since the emancipation of women in the early 20th century, gender roles in the Western world have indeed started to level out. But this isn't the case for the rest of the world, which is significantly lagging behind in women rights and opportunities. Women are still told to cover themselves up, to limit their creative expression. Women are forced into arranged marriages where they have no opportunity to express their love and desires on their own accord. They face getting beaten by their husbands if they don't comply with his orders.
Equating freedom of expression, which is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas, to men feeling uncomfortable with crying in public, is laughable.
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Well, firstly, you missed the edit I added in (and I'm actually interested in having a discussion with you), so
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t. And both genders have power, so both DO play a role in gender roles. Women perpetuate stereotypes as much as men do, and I've actually seen more women participate in ****-shaming than men, I think, at this point
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I completely get what you're saying, but I'm NOT forgetting about them. We're talking Western countries in this thread, where women are nowhere near as oppressed. If we were talking the middle east, I'd have absolutely voted men and be arguing about how much that society oppresses women to the people arguing men. Just.. it's not the one we're talking about in this thread. We haven't forgotten them, and we aren't ignoring them (like some people, obvi not you, are saying), it's just not the topic.
I also actually said that this poll question is written too vaguely to be good, since gender expressionism abilities will VASTLY vary from country to country
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by bluth
not my comment about 'old white men' being sexist and racist. i'm screaming
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I edited and explained, that wasn't what I meant. You were advocating for tokenism which harms everyone (by reducing the people in a position to "they're mainly this race/gender so oppression!" )
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Member Since: 4/10/2012
Posts: 17,020
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The results... Either men and women have the same freedom, or men have more.
Enlighten because I'm not understanding.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rama
The results... Either men and women have the same freedom, or men have more.
Enlighten because I'm not understanding.
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-Western world only (meaning we're not talking about the middle east where women are OBVIOUSLY more oppressed)
-Specifically about gender expressionism
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 15,224
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Men are more restricted in terms of western society in terms of showing their emotions/acting feminine but Women are literally told they deserve rape if they show skin like
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 16,870
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Quote:
Originally posted by brndksk
It's certainly the strand of feminist that I encounter most often... feminists who are so fixated with statistics and positive discrimination that they have completely lost touch with what traditional and even Second Wave feminism was trying to achieve.
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Then that says more about your environment than feminism. I went to a liberal arts college. I took feminist theory classes under Alison Kafer, a published author for feminsit/queer theory. The people I encounter do not want women to be equal to men they want the priveleges (and as result limitiations) of both genders removed.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nano
No.
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DIctionary > You. If you want to prove me wrong, post some f***ing evidence rather than expecting me to bow to your word. I have all the patience in the world for people who want to have an actual discussion, but I have none for people who expect me to agree with them because they said so and they're oh-so-enlightened. You've proved NOTHING with "No" other than how close minded you are.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kim Kardashian
Men are more restricted in terms of western society in terms of showing their emotions/acting feminine but Women are literally told they deserve rape if they show skin like
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While that's VILE, it is worth remembering the reason they're told they deserve rape if they show skin is because "men just can't control themselves." Victim-blaming is just awful in general and needs to stop
EDIT: And to be clear I'm mainly just trying to keep things in perspective here. Both groups are incredibly oppressed in terms of gender roles.
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Member Since: 6/28/2010
Posts: 7,399
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nano
Translation for your post: "Feminists should just shut the **** up"
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Or... feminists who don't want to discuss gender objectively should shut the **** up.
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Member Since: 4/14/2011
Posts: 48,397
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Don't wanna sound rude but Repo, I think you mean gender expression. Expressionism was an art movement of the 20th century.
Anyway, I still think it's women. I have seen it firsthand since I was a boy with my dad not allowing my mom to have a job.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoKoPaNdA
Don't wanna sound rude but Repo, I think you mean gender expression. Expressionism was an art movement of the 20th century.
Anyway, I still think it's women. I have seen it firsthand since I was a boy with my dad not allowing my mom to have a job.
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Clock me! But yeah, you're right. Gender expression is what I meant. Not rude at all
Fair point. That said... I don't think most the Western world is like that, but I could be very wrong. I've seen a lot of women working jobs though.
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Member Since: 9/4/2011
Posts: 29,960
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Quote:
Originally posted by bluth
and i said 'which still endure today'. the fact that y'all reduce 'freedom of expression' to talking about how we're feeling today and ignore the fact that there are many societies which exist TODAY where women can't even open their mouths.
even in western society, the fact that it doesn't even speak to y'all that most politicians are old white men. even still, focusing on what you believe on western equality is never going to help world equality, is it?
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Current politicians are old, so they got their start maybe 30 or 40 years ago. The feminist movement wasn't as far along as it is now back then. Maybe when the older politicians start dying off/the new wave of politicians from our generation come in we'll see more women.
Just because it might not make an impact doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 6,630
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Quote:
Originally posted by Repo
DIctionary > You. If you want to prove me wrong, post some f***ing evidence rather than expecting me to bow to your word. I have all the patience in the world for people who want to have an actual discussion, but I have none for people who expect me to agree with them because they said so and they're oh-so-enlightened. You've proved NOTHING with "No" other than how close minded you are.
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Do you seriously think the dictionary is a good source for a definition of a word like 'feminism'?
Literally all you are doing in this thread is spouting off your ignorance and showing your privilege. Have you tried doing something like reading feminist blogs or websites to get educated?
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 13,761
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Quote:
Originally posted by Repo
EDIT: And to be clear I'm mainly just trying to keep things in perspective here. Both groups are incredibly oppressed in terms of gender roles.
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girl, i don't think you understand what 'oppression' means. it refers to the systematic and historic marginalisation of a certain group of people which restricts their power and freedom socially, legally and politically. it does NOT refer to some trivial side-effects of certain gender roles.
also, point to me specifically where i advocated tokenism, otherwise - sit.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nano
Do you seriously think the dictionary is a good source for a definition of a word like 'feminism'?
Literally all you are doing in this thread is spouting off your ignorance and showing your privilege. Have you tried doing something like reading feminist blogs or websites to get educated?
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For A definition of it? Yes. All I was proving is that not all feminists are the same.
And NOW you resort to accusing the other side of being ignorant and privileged without posting a single. Shred. Of. Evidence. I respond to logic and reasoning, not you trying to "shame me" into agreeing. You have made zero valid points, you have posted zero evidence and when you're called on it you attack the other person as "privileged" and "ignorant" when the only one that fits either is you. You're not right just because you say it, back it up like other people have done.
Quote:
Originally posted by bluth
girl, i don't think you understand what 'oppression' means. it refers to the systematic and historic marginalisation of a certain group of people which restricts their power and freedom socially, legally and politically. it does NOT refer to some trivial side-effects of certain gender roles.
also, point to me where i advocated tokenism, otherwise - sit.
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Fine, discriminated against. Stereotyped. Whatever. Both guys and girls are worse off due to how restrictive gender roles are. I'm not super finnicky about terms as long as the main idea gets across. But please, by all means, continue to nitpick rather than talk about the main ideas. Would you like to correct my spelling and grammar while you're at it?
Go back and read my post, otherwise you can sit. I explained everything in my edit. I'm not posting it again so you don't have to go back two pages.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 1,473
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nano
Do you seriously think the dictionary is a good source for a definition of a word like 'feminism'?
Literally all you are doing in this thread is spouting off your ignorance and showing your privilege. Have you tried doing something like reading feminist blogs or websites to get educated?
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Reading feminist blogs or websites? Where the posts are written by FEMINISTS who obviously will have a skewed viewpoint on the matter in favor of FEMINISM. Yea thats completely reliable and trustworthy.
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Member Since: 4/23/2011
Posts: 16,377
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It's definitely men.
People are using superficial examples of "expression" like clothes, dancing and crying, but men are allowed to express their thoughts and opinions freely with little resistance. Women are still expected to be cooperative and diplomatic. There's a lot of resistance and opposition when they're assertive or they try to a position on anything. Or they're just not taken seriously.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 8,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by KyIe
Reading feminist blogs or websites? Where the posts are written by FEMINISTS who obviously will have a skewed viewpoint on the matter in favor of FEMINISM. Yea thats completely reliable and trustworthy.
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More importantly, I'm not having this discussion with those feminists blogs, I'm having it with the people in this thread. Post your own logic and arguments, don't tell me to google for unspecific feminist blogs (there's a lot of them out there with a lot of different stances) I have yet to tell anyone to go google some kind of blog and read it to "educate" themselves. I just post my opinion and back it up with logic. You know, what you're supposed to do in a discussion
Quote:
Originally posted by Inverted
It's definitely men.
People are using superficial examples of "expression" like clothes, dancing and crying, but men are allowed to express their thoughts and opinions freely with little resistance. Women are still expected to be cooperative and diplomatic. There's a lot of resistance and opposition when they're assertive or they try to a position on anything. Or they're just not taken seriously.
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Crying/emotions are in NO WAY superficial, as even a basic psychology class will show. That said, the rest are reasonable points, but I'm not sure I completely agree. I don't see people mocking, say, Meryl Streep or other actresses for being assertive when campaigning for equal pay.
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Banned
Member Since: 8/6/2015
Posts: 89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Repo
Well, firstly, you missed the edit I added in (and I'm actually interested in having a discussion with you), so
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I completely get what you're saying, but I'm NOT forgetting about them. We're talking Western countries in this thread, where women are nowhere near as oppressed. If we were talking the middle east, I'd have absolutely voted men and be arguing about how much that society oppresses women to the people arguing men. Just.. it's not the one we're talking about in this thread. We haven't forgotten them, and we aren't ignoring them (like some people, obvi not you, are saying), it's just not the topic.
I also actually said that this poll question is written too vaguely to be good, since gender expressionism abilities will VASTLY vary from country to country
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But even then, "Western countries" is still not specific enough. There is too much variation. Read up on Hofstede's cultural dimensions. Several Western countries, such as the US, Germany and Austria are still quite masculine societies, whereas you have "feminine" countries such as Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands.
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