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Discussion: U.S. Election 2016
Member Since: 3/5/2011
Posts: 15,589
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Blackout
Dems became spoiled with identity politics and many started seeing their votes as gifts to the candidates (lol). But the stance he's taking would cost us people of color and that's a terrible strategy. That's why I don't like Bernie. He's done nothing but divide the party so far. We don't need that.
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Dems have always coasted on ID politics but they took it way too far this time around.
Wasted political capital on fringe issues like transgender bathrooms (even Bill Maher agrees), paraded random Hindu families at the DNC, micro targeting white suburban women (who will always vote with their husbands lol)
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Member Since: 5/21/2009
Posts: 11,151
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
are you seriously trying to make the claim that Bernie Sanders fails to acknowledge minority and LGBT concerns? because he's been doing that since wayy before it was politically beneficial to do so
also his point wasn't "identity politics is trash" his point was that basing an entire campaign on identity politics is a cop-out and that you have to have a broader message that addresses the concerns of all voters in addition to the concerns of minority voters
Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were polar opposites in this respect: Hillary only addressed the problems of each individual minority group (black lives matter, sexism, immigration) thinking that if she appealed to each group separately their collective votes would be enough to win her the election
Donald Trump didn't bother appealing to any minority group in any way, his message was 0% focus on identity politics and 100% focus on broad issues that affect US citizens universally (lack of infrastructure/poor standing abroad/wage stagnation). Yes all of his ideas to fix these problems were trash but people only cared that unlike Hillary he actually addressed these issues and mirrored their frustration about these long-ignored problems. this essentially proves Bernie's point that an overarching message ("Make America great again") that ties together all of your collective policy proposals is much more likely to resonate with the electorate than a bunch of small policy proposals that are only relevant to certain groups. It doesn't matter that Hillary was more competent and better suited for the job - Trump created a movement
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And the irony is the Democrats track record was all talk, and very little action behind their soothing claims. More illegals have been deported under Obama and the Clinton legacy desolated the Black community. Minorities have gotten tired of sipping the dry ass liberal kool-aid. 
Liberals refuse to acknowledge that Trump won because he was speaking most of White America's language. And yes, that included college-educated whites. White America doesn't want to lose their power and privilege. So while you elitist liberals are making your trite hillbilly jokes, maybe you need to start talking to your racist ass aunties, uncles, and college friends and ask them how they really feel.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
lmao this is literally like talking to a child. OF COURSE Bernie's supporters who were atypical Democrat voters didn't vote for Hillary - she stood for everything he was against! Hillary embodies corporate interests, disregard for the working class, "Wall Street over Main Street," and business-as-usual. it also makes COMPLETE sense that Bernie's coalition would rather vote for Trump because Bernie and Trump are much more similar than Bernie and Hillary - they had different policies but their policies were addressing the same issues whereas Hillary was largely ignoring those issues.
(also I'm not just making **** up, my public policy professor spent half an hour today discussing this. go read some articles covering the 2008 primary, especially those written right after the New Hampshire primary)
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And? I'm sure longtime democrats don't stand for everything Bernie stands for either yet here you are assuming they'd just vote for him if he were the nominee. That's the thing with you Bernie bros, you need a good wake up call thinking your votes are gifts to the candidate. Hopefully Bernie keeps on this dividing strategy with of his so that we, actual democrats, don't support him in 2020. Hell if he somehow wins the nomination, we can survive another Trump term.
And Bernie and Hillary voted 93% of the time the same way on the bills they voted on together while senators. Her policies were barely any different from his. And may I remind you that he refused to release his tax returns and bought a third house as soon as he lost the nomination which got him a lot of criticism given that he's a so called socialist. Bernie bros simply get episodes of amnesia when trying to justify their voting for Trump aka a billionaire who outsourced most of his jobs and doesn't pay any taxes and has a tax plan that would favor the rich better than even Reagan's plan did. Don't try to justify this.
As I said, actual democrats aren't crazy about Bernie either so he probably shouldn't take them for granted. He was already doing badly enough with people of color (a solid dem demo) and now he's brushing their struggles off as identity politics while elevating the white working class (a solid republican demo). No way I'm backing this guy in 4 years. DNC better find themselves a new Obama if they plan on relying to longtime dems to stay there.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damien M
Dems have always coasted on ID politics but they took it way too far this time around.
Wasted political capital on fringe issues like transgender bathrooms (even Bill Maher agrees), paraded random Hindu families at the DNC, micro targeting white suburban women (who will always vote with their husbands lol)
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That's true. These 8 Obama years spoiled liberals way too much and the DNC went with it. They'll get back in formation after a disastrous republican term. This is why Gore lost so many votes to Nader; spoiled liberals.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dessy Fenix
I'm curious what boarder messages did Hillary not do while focusing on minorities?
Trump made appeals to separate groups. We just gonna gloss over his whole black church and "inner cities" mess? That wasn't a board appeal, that was targeting the black community (miserably, at that). He promised to protect LGBT from Radical Islam. Trump ultimately played on "identity" when he talked about Mexican immigrants and Muslims. What is this rewriting of history?  |
Obama's broad message was "Hope and Change"
Trump's broad message was "Make America Great Again"
these are more than just campaign slogans: they are overarching messages that summarize their campaigns
"Stronger Together" is insubstantial and doesn't really say anything about what Hillary is trying to accomplish
also none of those Trump talking points were true appeals to identity politics. they were simply his same (broad) white nationalism tailored toward individual communities and it failed to resonate with those communities
for example, his promise to protect LGBTQ persons from radical Islam was geared only toward white LGBTQ people because he had already alienated every other intersectional identity within the LGBTQ community with his racism and sexism. so this is still an example of pandering to the white electorate, just a smaller portion of the white electorate. therefore this is not an example of identity politics (a better example of Trump playing on identity politics would be the attention he drew toward Caitlin Jenner's endorsement of his candidacy and her using the bathroom at Trump Tower in a thinly-veiled attempt to appeal to trans women)
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Member Since: 6/19/2012
Posts: 29,579
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 23,857
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
lmao this is literally like talking to a child. OF COURSE Bernie's supporters who were atypical Democrat voters didn't vote for Hillary - she stood for everything he was against! Hillary embodies corporate interests, disregard for the working class, "Wall Street over Main Street," and business-as-usual. it also makes COMPLETE sense that Bernie's coalition would rather vote for Trump because Bernie and Trump are much more similar than Bernie and Hillary - they had different policies but their policies were addressing the same issues whereas Hillary was largely ignoring those issues.
(also I'm not just making **** up, my public policy professor spent half an hour today discussing this. go read some articles covering the 2008 primary, especially those written right after the New Hampshire primary)
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Min wage:
Bernie - $15
Hillary - $12, would consider $15
Trump - *Shrugs*
EPA regulation too restrictive:
Bernie - nope
Hillary - nope
Trump - yup
Absolute gun ownership
Bernie - nope
Hillary - nope
Trump - yup
Wealthy higher taxes
Bernie - Yeah
Hillary - Yeah
Trump - No
Social Security
Bernie - No Privatization
Hillary - No privatization
Trump - Privatization
Abortion
Bernie - Pro-choice
Hillary - Pro-choice
Trump - *shrugs*
Keystone Pipeline
Bernie - Opposes
Hillary - Opposes
Trump - Supports
College
Bernie - Free College (No-loan tuition, free community college)
Hillary - Tuition Free college/community college
Trump - reduce college cost but ????
I don't know where you get the polar opposite thing from. Trump is EXACTLY what Bernie don't like. The Billionaire class. The wealthy. Who scam Americans out of their money and pay no taxes. The only thing they have in common is that they represent a change but by no means are they the same. Anyone who went from Bernie to Trump never truly listen to him. They didn't have to vote for Hillary but voting for Trump is a greater betrayal of the values that Bernie represented.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by NE.
And the irony is the Democrats track record was all talk, and very little action behind their soothing claims. More illegals have been deported under Obama and the Clinton legacy desolated the Black community. Minorities have gotten tired of sipping the dry ass liberal kool-aid.
Liberals refuse to acknowledge that Trump won because he was speaking most of White America's language. And yes, that included college-educated whites. White America doesn't want to lose their power and privilege. So while you elitist liberals are making your trite hillbilly jokes, maybe you need to start talking to your racist ass aunties, uncles, and college friends and ask them how they really feel.
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lol republicans won't even let you vote or value your votes, what makes you think they'll suddenly start treating people of color well all of a sudden? Obamacare gave many black families around America health insurance. He increased welfare spending to make up for the **** wages people of color work for in many areas. And this was all during his first 2 years. A republican president would have never done the same.
It sucks that he never tried to implement a justice system reform but with a red congress it would have never went through. They wouldn't even approve his most basic bills. He got most of his **** done in his first two years.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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Member Since: 6/19/2012
Posts: 29,579
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
also you guys can *attempt* to drag Bernie for his comment on identity politics all you want but he's right (and he's put in the hard hours fighting on behalf of POC in order to earn the right to speak on what would benefit them)
identity politics is the reason Hillary lost the election: instead of crafting an overarching message about why she would be good for all Americans she basically spoke separately to each individual minority group (black, LGBT, hispanic, disabled, etc...) telling them that progress was made for them under Obama and that she would continue that progress in her Presidency
this shows how clearly out of touch she was with the tone of this election: this was a "change" election and instead of offering up change she offered up more of the same. the same wage stagnation and the same de-industrialization. Instead of doing what her opponent was doing: identifying the problem at hand in America and offering a concrete solution Hillary denied that there were any problems and offered nothing of substance other than "I'm not Donald Trump." this identity politics-centered message instantly alienated anybody who was not a minority which explains why she lost every rural precinct by 30+ points
everybody knows hillary lost because of rural white voters but only Bernie has had the balls to identify her more-of-the-same, identity politics-heavy message as the cause of her actually losing those voters
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this post is utter ********
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Member Since: 5/21/2009
Posts: 11,151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damien M
That's true.
but people in this thread STILL haven't learned their lesson, as they scour the (empty) Dem bench for any random woman from Cali to vote for. 
Two positives from this election though :
1) I (and many others) will never vote for a white woman again
2) The Clintons are over and it's time to flush them out of the Dem party (with all their baggage) |
LMAO.
If Democrats end up using the same losing strategy twice in a row, I'm going to officially have to register as an independent because this foolishness will have me picking cotton by 2024 if they don't get it together.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 23,857
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
Obama's broad message was "Hope and Change"
Trump's broad message was "Make America Great Again"
these are more than just campaign slogans: they are overarching messages that summarize their campaigns
"Stronger Together" is insubstantial and doesn't really say anything about what Hillary is trying to accomplish
also none of those Trump talking points were true appeals to identity politics. they were simply his same (broad) white nationalism tailored toward individual communities and it failed to resonate with those communities
for example, his promise to protect LGBTQ persons from radical Islam was geared only toward white LGBTQ people because he had already alienated every other intersectional identity within the LGBTQ community with his racism and sexism. so this is still an example of pandering to the white electorate, just a smaller portion of the white electorate. therefore this is not an example of identity politics (a better example of Trump playing on identity politics would be the attention he drew toward Caitlin Jenner's endorsement of his candidacy and her using the bathroom at Trump Tower in a thinly-veiled attempt to appeal to trans women)
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So Trump's appealing to the white electorate mostly = not identity politics. I see now.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Trump will turn swing states red forever with his upcoming crime bill (all the inner cities talk wasn't for nothing). Dems need to fight to give ex-felons voting rights. Why is no one focusing on this?
The biggest mistake of the Clinton era was caving in to the GOP led crack era fear mongering
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artemisia
i hate bernie sanders
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The divider in chief.
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Member Since: 6/19/2012
Posts: 29,579
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-Hillary rejected the thesis of 2016 being a change election because the country is, according to most OBJECTIVE metrics, IMPROVING
-Hillary had policies that would benefit working Americans regardless of race. She spoke about them very often. Minimum wage increases are identity politics? Free/affordable college is identity politics? Paid family leave is identity politics? Child care reform is identity politics? Protecting and improving Obamacare which covers 22 million previously uninsured individuals is identity politics?
I could go on forever.
White liberals and Sanders supporters are so triggered by Hillary Clinton's insistence on giving women and minorities a seat at the table that they refuse to see the bigger picture.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 23,857
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I just don't understand what it is that Hillary was suppose to do? Stay quiet on BLM? On the issues of equal pay and abortion? Not pretend she was a qualified woman who could break that glass ceiling and inspired millions of American women?
Yeah she shouldn't had avoided areas and ignored suggestion to visit the Rust Belt. But at the same time she was trying to make the play for minorities in places like Arizona because she place her faith into that basket.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 14,905
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artemisia
this post is utter ********
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the truth hurts babe
Quote:
Originally posted by Dessy Fenix
I don't know where you get the polar opposite thing from. Trump is EXACTLY what Bernie don't like. The Billionaire class. The wealthy. Who scam Americans out of their money and pay no taxes. The only thing they have in common is that they represent a change but by no means are they the same. Anyone who went from Bernie to Trump never truly listen to him. They didn't have to vote for Hillary but voting for Trump is a greater betrayal of the values that Bernie represented.
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okay but remember that I said their policy approaches were vastly different, but the issues that they addressed were the same. you listed a bunch of policies. the point that I was making was not about any specific issue - it was about the nature of the Trump/Clinton/Sanders campaigns. really try and hear me out here: Trump and Bernie both ran populist campaigns. Hillary ran a status quo, business as usual campaign. the trouble with Hillary is, this is was a "change" election and the issues that relate to populism - close connections between Wall Street and politicians, wage stagnation, de-industrialization, outsourcing of jobs, extensive foreign entanglements - worked against Hillary while they worked in Bernie and Trump's favors
as sad as it may be, the majority of voters don't care about the actual policies - they care about the narrative each candidate is selling. To the voters concerned with these populist issues, Hillary's narrative was "political elite, Washington insider, Wall Street crony, next in line from the Clinton political dynasty." Trump and Bernie's narratives were "party outsiders coming to introduce radical ideas, fight the political establishment, and shake stuff up"
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dessy Fenix
I just don't understand what it is that Hillary was suppose to do? Stay quiet on BLM? On the issues of equal pay and abortion? Not pretend she was a qualified woman who could break that glass ceiling and inspired millions of American women?
Yeah she shouldn't had avoided areas and ignored suggestion to visit the Rust Belt. But at the same time she was trying to make the play for minorities in places like Arizona because she place her faith into that basket.
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If you google her approval ratings as a senator and secretary of state, it's always the minorities giving her high ratings while the whites give her 65 at best. It's not rocket science that her presidential campaign wouldn't focus on the white working class like Bernie's did.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 28,773
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Hillary's popular vote lead is now at 2 million.
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Member Since: 6/19/2012
Posts: 29,579
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so what you and bernie are arguing are different
Bernie wrongly stated that Hillary Clinton's campaign was about identity politics, which wasn't enough to win an election.
What you're arguing is that there was a fundamental issue with a seasoned politician like Hillary Clinton as a candidate. That even if her policies reflect populist ideals (they do), the pro-outsider, anti-insider narrative would invariably obstruct her victory
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 23,857
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightstheyblindme
the truth hurts babe
okay but remember that I said their policy approaches were vastly different, but the issues that they addressed were the same. you listed a bunch of policies. the point that I was making was not about any specific issue - it was about the nature of the Trump/Clinton/Sanders campaigns. really try and hear me out here: Trump and Bernie both ran populist campaigns. Hillary ran a status quo, business as usual campaign. the trouble with Hillary is, this is was a "change" election and the issues that relate to populism - close connections between Wall Street and politicians, wage stagnation, de-industrialization, outsourcing of jobs, extensive foreign entanglements - worked against Hillary while they worked in Bernie and Trump's favors
as sad as it may be, the majority of voters don't care about the actual policies - they care about the narrative each candidate is selling. To the voters concerned with these populist issues, Hillary's narrative was "political elite, Washington insider, Wall Street crony, next in line from the Clinton political dynasty." Trump and Bernie's narratives were "party outsiders coming to introduce radical ideas, fight the political establishment, and shake stuff up"
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What make it a "change" election? Because two populist candidate showed up? Obama approval rating higher than both candidates. Hillary winning the popular vote with record high turnout in the GE, already having more votes than every white president, and is on track to match Obama '12 numbers. A minority voted for change in both the Democratic Primary and the General Election. The states she should've won she lost by such small margins that she can now recount one of them if she wants to but probably won't because the Dems is all for this unity and stability biz.
Now I get that Hillary vs Donald was this establishment vs anti-establishment battle but I think that's overselling it because 1) Americans are increasingly polarized voting along party lines 2) Trump also tapped into the fears of illegal immigration, terrorism, etc. 3) Republicans obviously didn't mind voting for their establishment congresspeople.
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