[Retro]

Originally posted by Flare

Not this post proving exactly the point of my post. The amount of condescending behavior and rejection of any ideal but your own here is startling. Being a progressive doesn't mean being entitled and rude. For the official record I wasn't directing my post at you. If I was, I would have directly said your name. I had no problem doing it in the past so, I wouldn't start indirectly addressing you now. So it's interesting how much vitriol you came at me for a post that's not even about you.

With that said, if you want people to actually have productive (key word here) political discussion of differing opinions, how about not biting the head off of people before hearing them out. The simple logic of "shut them down completely" before they even say more than a full statement (i.e Damien's first post which was only one sentence long and your aggressive response literally slanting his whole character). You're already coming with this abrasive mindset for no real reason. The topic was about polling and you went all in like we were talking something actually serious like abortion, education, health care, etc. That's just mind blowing how you feel it's ok to rudely come for people all in (especially on the topic of polling of all things) then say "Well it's the election so, it's justified". Not sure how you expect any productive conversation if that's the route you're taking (see: Damien's response insulting you as proof your methods only make people upset, it's fishing for that kind of attention instead of a real response).

I'm coming off with an abrasive mindset because of people completely ignoring prior posts and because of people directly arguing against cited fact. And also because of this whole "condescending Retro!!" attitude.

I didn't "rudely come for" anyone. I told someone to click the link I had provided in the post they were addressing before, well, addressing that post. Not sure how anyone expects productive discussion when they ignore everything I'm saying and then get pissed at me when I get pissed they're ignoring it!

We're done with this discussion. I welcome any and all discussion about my behavior or character either on my wall or in PMs, but there won't be any more discussion about it in this thread. The discussion has moved on.

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Mike91

Really? Personal attacks and trying to claim I can't comprehend? If you want to get into a debate, then let's ****ing do it. Don't sit here and try and act like I don't know what the **** I'm talking about. And I ain't no web warrior for Bernie. I don't even talk about him outside of this thread. Not to mention, I've already expressed my support for Hillary.

But I'm not going to sit around and pretend that there aren't real problems that aren't being addressed and dealt with.

What on earth are you even talking about? Who are you even talking to?

Exactly who are you accusing of pretending that there aren't real problems?


The idea that you are some saint and the rest of us are neophytes who don't care about the issues is just in your imagination.

[Eros]

Also the reality of the matter is that there are very many representatives throughout the country that have battled and are currently battling against many different disparities that citizens face through out the country.

And thats what I'm referring to when I say people don't know what they're talking about when they say sh*t isn't being done. Because it is, its just that it takes a while for the solutions to these issues to reach a national stage where it might be brought to a federal level.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by BoyOnBoy Wonder

Bernie proving he is no ally to the LGBT community. Not surprised.

How so?

[Auris]

Just going to ignore Retro's rants and talk about the candidate whom I believe in most, who happens to be Johnson. What politics comes down to is a basic moral standing on the balance between security and liberty, that balance determines what candidates we align ourselves with.

I've taken the ISideWith Quiz and update it whenever new questions come out, I agree with Johnson on 83% of issues, Trump on 78%, Stein on 61%, and Clinton on 53%. While of course this quiz isn't perfect, it pretty well shows where I stand on the candidates.

A poll came out last week that shows 44% of Americans are open this election to voting third party and with the unfavorability ratings of these candidates being ridiculously high, I strongly believe that Johnson/Weld will cross 15% and be the first candidates in the debates since Perot. Of course, this is just speculation, but it is indeed a possibility.

Now, there are a million ways a poll could go wrong so YES, I do recognize that there is conflicting evidence to these such as polls where Johnson is at 4% and that Clinton and Trump are more favorable; however, nothing makes one poll more reliable than another, so discussion can still stem without saying "they won't win" or "your polls are false."

Also, Fox News lies less than MSNBC. So please, if you're going to discredit Fox News solely because it's Republican-biased, think again and realize that BOTH sides are biased and will lie.

[Eros]

And thats the thing too, most of the time the people that argue don't even read what was posted. So it makes the entire conversation pointless!

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Marvin

How so?

His attack on Barney Frank, a gay liberal legend whose accomplishments make Bernie look like a try hard.

His condemnation of aids activists through surrogates.



Bernie has an ego almost as large as Trump. Attacking people he should be supporting.

[Auris]

Originally posted by Eros

And thats the thing too, most of the time the people that argue don't even read what was posted. So it makes the entire conversation pointless!

This is also true, discussion and education only stems from us actually reading opinions contrary to our own. We all could benefit from reading what each other post. I love reading the links that Retro posts, they're interesting and show evidence to contrary points of view to my own.

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Wafflecakes

What on earth are you even talking about? Who are you even talking to?

Exactly who are you accusing of pretending that there aren't real problems?


The idea that you are some saint and the rest of us are neophytes who don't care about the issues is just in your imagination.

And what are YOU talking about? Who's acting like a saint and accusing people of not caring about the issues? never said dems or Hillary supporters, etc don't care. No one is saying that at all.

If we want to talk about reading articles online, then read this.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/why-h...he-presidency/

And yes, it's worth the read.

[Retro]

Originally posted by Auris

Just going to ignore Retro's rants and talk about the candidate whom I believe in most, who happens to be Johnson. What politics comes down to is a basic moral standing on the balance between security and liberty, that balance determines what candidates we align ourselves with.

I've taken the ISideWith Quiz and update it whenever new questions come out, I agree with Johnson on 83% of issues, Trump on 78%, Stein on 61%, and Clinton on 53%. While of course this quiz isn't perfect, it pretty well shows where I stand on the candidates.

A poll came out last week that shows 44% of Americans are open this election to voting third party and with the unfavorability ratings of these candidates being ridiculously high, I strongly believe that Johnson/Weld will cross 15% and be the first candidates in the debates since Perot. Of course, this is just speculation, but it is indeed a possibility.

Now, there are a million ways a poll could go wrong so YES, I do recognize that there is conflicting evidence to these such as polls where Johnson is at 4% and that Clinton and Trump are more favorable; however, nothing makes one poll more reliable than another, so discussion can still stem without saying "they won't win" or "your polls are false."

Also, Fox News lies less than MSNBC. So please, if you're going to discredit Fox News solely because it's Republican-biased, think again and realize that BOTH sides are biased and will lie.

It's wonderful that you're just going to talk views and issues, because that's what I would have liked in the first place!

I won't pretend to know your life and your views, but I would like you to lay them out more here just to get a sense of whether we differ more socially or in terms of the size of government - it will give me a much better context with which to debate on particular issues when they arise. As some perspective on myself, you can probably just consider me as liberal as liberal gets.

With regard to Fox, I'm not talking about their propensity or lack thereof to include factually wrong information in news reports. Fox, throughout this election, has been the pollster that most often showed Bernie ahead of Hillary in places she won comfortably, and in national Democratic polls. It seems that their bias against her - which truly does exist - is seeping into their polls, and I find that highly questionable. Now, it might just be more noticeable because it doesn't align with the norm, and I fully acknowledge that other sources are just as biased, but because I have noticed this trend so much already, I take all their polls with a few grains of salt. Surely this is understandable to you.

I think we'll get along now since I got my monthly venting out of the way, guess the claws fall off after they come out.

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Mike91

And what are YOU talking about? Who's acting like a saint and accusing people of not caring about the issues? never said dems or Hillary supporters, etc don't care. No one is saying that at all.

If we want to talk about reading articles online, then read this.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/why-h...he-presidency/

And yes, it's worth the read.

ROFL.....

Wow. What a prestigious and reliable source you have?

Maybe you should link to a Fox News or TYT video next?

[Marvin]

Our infrastructure is crumbling and not much is being done about it. I don't understand how Democrats and Republicans can't work together on this. 60k bridges across the country are in bad condition and the infrastructure budget continues to decline. This really needs to become a bigger focus over the next few years; it's only going to become more costly and dangerous as they ignore it.

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Wafflecakes

ROFL.....

Wow. What a prestigious and reliable source you have?

Maybe you should link to a Fox News or TYT video next?

And this is where you no longer matter in the discussion. Instead of reading it, you're just going to dismiss it because of the source and/or because it won't fit your narrative. It's actually a good article and explains why Sanders' supporters are fighting for him still, etc.

But go on, be ignorant. And no amount of "'s" is going to change that.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Wafflecakes

His attack on Barney Frank, a gay liberal legend whose accomplishments make Bernie look like a try hard.

His condemnation of aids activists through surrogates.



Bernie has an ego almost as large as Trump. Attacking people he should be supporting.

His sexuality had nothing to do with the reason Next you'll be trying to call him a racist for "attacking" a black person.

[Eros]

Originally posted by Marvin

Our infrastructure is crumbling (don't really need a source for that) and not much is being done about it. I don't understand how Democrats and Republicans can't work together on this. 60k bridges across the country are in bad condition and the infrastructure budget continues to decline. This really needs to become a bigger focus over the next few years; it's only going to become more costly and dangerous as they ignore it.

Now this I 10000000% agree with! Its probably one of the most solid posts you've ever made, Melvin! <3

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Marvin

His sexuality had nothing to do with the reason Next you'll be trying to call him a racist for "attacking" a black person.

I never said that it made Bernie homophobic sis

Just that he is no great friend of the gays.

[Retro]

Originally posted by Marvin

Our infrastructure is crumbling (don't really need a source for that) and not much is being done about it. I don't understand how Democrats and Republicans can't work together on this. 60k bridges across the country are in bad condition and the infrastructure budget continues to decline. This really needs to become a bigger focus over the next few years; it's only going to become more costly and dangerous as they ignore it.

I think that it's a failure to agree on how to address it, and I think that failure to agree stems from extreme partisanship. People are becoming more liberal and more conservative, and politicians are refusing more and more to work across the aisle at all. It's not really helped by the incredibly different and diverging images the GP sees in Sanders and Trump or Clinton and Trump. Everything is becoming so much more polarized that things we can all agree on like infrastructure are being left out of discussion, and when they are brought up it's all about who gets their way.

[Marvin]

Change. Incrementalism. Pragmatism.

Buzzwords that have allowed income inequality, aka the systematic redistribution of money from the middle class to the already-doing-fine class, to explode over the last 35 years.

This is what the pundits don’t get when they urge party unity. For the millions of Americans who’ve voted for Sanders, it’s not just about winning an election.

Dramatically changing the trajectory of their lives, and their children’s lives, is the end game.

Sure, the pundits warn of the looming epic disaster of a President Trump. What they can’t grasp — for Becky, and millions like her, they’re already living a quiet disaster.

Wooooo

Great article, Mike.

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Mike91

And this is where you no longer matter in the discussion. Instead of reading it, you're just going to dismiss it because of the source and/or because it won't fit your narrative. It's actually a good article and explains why Sanders' supporters are fighting for him still, etc.

But go on, be ignorant. And no amount of "'s" is going to change that.

If what is takes to have "discussion" is to take some crack blog of hews that no one has ever heard of seriously then I will pass. You can have your "discussion" with your trash "sources".

It is pretty rich that you are the one talking about other sticking to a narrative, because you cannot find a legit news source to back up your "narrative" about Bernie, you revert to some blog just so you can find someone who agrees with you.

[Auris]

Originally posted by Retro

It's wonderful that you're just going to talk views and issues, because that's what I would have liked in the first place!

I won't pretend to know your life and your views, but I would like you to lay them out more here just to get a sense of whether we differ more socially or in terms of the size of government - it will give me a much better context with which to debate on particular issues when they arise. As some perspective on myself, you can probably just consider me as liberal as liberal gets.

With regard to Fox, I'm not talking about their propensity or lack thereof to include factually wrong information in news reports. Fox, throughout this election, has been the pollster that most often showed Bernie ahead of Hillary in places she won comfortably, and in national Democratic polls. It seems that their bias against her - which truly does exist - is seeping into their polls, and I find that highly questionable. Now, it might just be more noticeable because it doesn't align with the norm, and I fully acknowledge that other sources are just as biased, but because I have noticed this trend so much already, I take all their polls with a few grains of salt. Surely this is understandable to you.

I think we'll get along now since I got my monthly venting out of the way, guess the claws fall off after they come out.

Well I've grown up in a single-mother household with unsteady income, I worked extremely hard in school and was able to get a full ride to my university (Vanderbilt) without loans. There stems my dislike for Bernie, whose primary issue is free college. As someone who's been below the poverty line but worked my way to success, I realize that college is unfairly biased towards the wealthy, but I don't believe the Gov should get involved. Especially since I've worked hard to go to my university free of charge, I've seen how hard work gets us where we want to go: not government handouts.

I'm extremely socially liberal on all issues other than immigration and somewhat on abortion. As an Arizonan with many first generation friends whose parents worked to get into this country legally, I believe that illegal immigrants should be required to come over legally and not given amnesty. This I disagree with libertarians on, too. In terms of abortion, I think it should be legal for the first trimester and banned afterwards unless it's a rape victim/etc.

My family is Israeli and I support Israel's movements in Gaza whilst disagreeing with most of their movements in the West Bank.

I'm for general spending cuts, making Social Security optional, and either having a 100% capitalist healthcare system or a 100% socialist one. The mix we have now isn't helping anybody. I'm in favor of eliminating the public school system and replacing it with charters. As an Arizonan, we have one of the worst public systems in the country but three of the T10 high schools in the country - including the #1 - all of which are charters. I personally go to a private (on full financial aid) but I have seen how amazing our charter schools are and how much better they function than the overfunded and underacheiving publics are. Also I'm in favor of chartering out roads to companies and getting the government out of the majority of projects. End food stamps. Cut military spending. Stop foreign aid to most countries.

I hate guns with a passion, with my father having legally obtained and killing himself with one. However, I believe that we have a right to arms. People should have background checks and a mental health review before getting guns, though. No guns for criminals.

Privatize prisons, release all weed/shrooms/lsd-related criminals. Legalize every drug less dangerous than alcohol for sure, I'm not sure regarding my views towards drugs like heroin and meth.

Taxes are a complicated issue for me that I'm not fully sure what I believe in yet - but it's generally more conservative. I do believe in a progressive tax though with eliminating income tax for those under the poverty line.

Hope that lays out some of my views for you - and I'm open to discussion on any of them! It'd be silly to be so hardcore that I'm unwilling to change, but this is where I currently stand.