[Mike91]

Originally posted by Eros

LMAO did y'all see this!

Sorry but Bernie's right about the democratic party. It preaches progressive values but ultimately does nothing and won't unless it changes it's priorities behind the scenes. It's a racially diverse party but in hindsight, what have the high profile members of the party done for that portion of the party?

It's very easy to say you're progressive and like progressive causes, but ultimately means nothing if you do nothing to fight for them and easily cave in to conservative demands (which is what they've always done). It's one thing to work with republicans, it's another to completely cave in to them 9/10.

That's what all of this is about at the end of the day. There are real problems in the country and nobody is doing anything about it. They talk about it every 4 years when they want to be elected, but ignore it once in office. That's where the anger comes from. I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

[Eros]

Originally posted by Auris

Right? Retro is making it so nobody else wants to enter here because we have to deal with his same responses ignoring polls that have Trump ahead and destroying ANY sort of actual discussion on Johnson or Stein. Instead of talking about views he's just saying they will be a non-factor and trying to keep this as a HIllary base

So instead of focusing your entire point here on Retro, why don't you spark some discussion on said candidates you'd like to talk about? But also, don't forget, that when you open up discussion in a forum be prepared to defend your points with FACTS. Which you fail to do a lot!

And quite frankly, it'd be irresponsible of Retro to allow misinformation to be spread about this thread, so good on him for calling y'all out!

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Akil

Barney Franks' comments on the Democratic Party... and Bernie


Drag a biT. Barney.

Its not actually by Barney.... and AP

[Retro]

Originally posted by Mike91

Sorry but Bernie's right about the democratic party. It preaches progressive values but ultimately does nothing and won't unless it changes it's priorities behind the scenes. It's a racially diverse party but in hindsight, what have the high profile members of the party done for that portion of the party?

It's very easy to say you're progressive and like progressive causes, but ultimately means nothing if you do nothing to fight for them and easily cave in to conservative demands (which is what they've always done). It's one thing to work with republicans, it's another to completely cave in to them 9/10.

That's what all of this is about at the end of the day. There are real problems in the country and nobody is doing anything about it. They talk about it every 4 years when they want to be elected, but ignore it once in office. That's where the anger comes from. I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

I think that the reality kind of lies somewhere between that image Eros posted and your post - you're both right, in a way.

There are Democrats and parts of the party that legitimately achieve progressive goals and work hard for those goals - there are a lot of politicians that fight these battles every day and I don't think that we give them enough credit. You can't name me very many Democrats who haven't worked hard for progress.

But I agree that we need to do more. I agree that more things need to change and policies need to be amended, taxes need to be raised and wages along with them, that the cost of college needs to be reduced, that we need to completely reassess our attitude on race and the police... lots of things, I could go on.

But I do think we have a lot of Democrats who fight for all of these things and the things that most concern their states or districts.

[Eros]

Originally posted by Mike91

Sorry but Bernie's right about the democratic party. It preaches progressive values but ultimately does nothing and won't unless it changes it's priorities behind the scenes. It's a racially diverse party but in hindsight, what have the high profile members of the party done for that portion of the party?

It's very easy to say you're progressive and like progressive causes, but ultimately means nothing if you do nothing to fight for them and easily cave in to conservative demands (which is what they've always done). It's one thing to work with republicans, it's another to completely cave in to them 9/10.

That's what all of this is about at the end of the day. There are real problems in the country and nobody is doing anything about it. They talk about it every 4 years when they want to be elected, but ignore it once in office. That's where the anger comes from. I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

I want a source on every single one of these claims because pretty much all of this sounds like your very misconstrued view of the party and the political process in general.

once you come back with those we can talk!

[ThePopPrince]

Originally posted by Mike91

Sorry but Bernie's right about the democratic party. It preaches progressive values but ultimately does nothing and won't unless it changes it's priorities behind the scenes. It's a racially diverse party but in hindsight, what have the high profile members of the party done for that portion of the party?

It's very easy to say you're progressive and like progressive causes, but ultimately means nothing if you do nothing to fight for them and easily cave in to conservative demands (which is what they've always done). It's one thing to work with republicans, it's another to completely cave in to them 9/10.

That's what all of this is about at the end of the day. There are real problems in the country and nobody is doing anything about it. They talk about it every 4 years when they want to be elected, but ignore it once in office. That's where the anger comes from. I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

I don't think Bernie is correct. There's a long political history of the democratic party figthing for progressive values. I don't understand what you mean by "fight for them" when the house and the senate are controlled by the GOP. How would you like them to fight for pregressive values when you, the people chose to make it virtually impossible for them to pass anything? It's very difficult for dems to prevent a right wing bill from passing so what they do is negotiate progressive ammendents in the bill in return for easier passage. That's the choice you, the people, left them with. If you want a real revolution, help them dems take back the house and the senate and watch with your very eyes all of the progressive causes that will become important.

It's not so much "ignoring it" as it is they can't do anything about it. If you think Bernie becoming POTUS will somehow grant him the power the change those things you'd be wrong. His promises still need to pass through the GOP. Help Dems take back the house and the senate and you'll get everything you want.

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Mike91

Sorry but Bernie's right about the democratic party. It preaches progressive values but ultimately does nothing and won't unless it changes it's priorities behind the scenes. It's a racially diverse party but in hindsight, what have the high profile members of the party done for that portion of the party?

It's very easy to say you're progressive and like progressive causes, but ultimately means nothing if you do nothing to fight for them and easily cave in to conservative demands (which is what they've always done). It's one thing to work with republicans, it's another to completely cave in to them 9/10.

That's what all of this is about at the end of the day. There are real problems in the country and nobody is doing anything about it. They talk about it every 4 years when they want to be elected, but ignore it once in office. That's where the anger comes from. I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

Oh please. Bernie hasn't accomplished **** during his decades in congress while the Dem party has led the country to great strides forward on numerous issues.

Bernie is a piss stain of a "progressive".

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Eros

I want a source on every single one of these claims because pretty much all of this sounds like your very misconstrued view of the party and the political process in general.

once you come back with those we can talk!

You really need proof?

Look around. Look a why Trump is the republican nominee. Look at why Bernie went from 2% in the polls to where he is now. He's likely going to end up with half of the states won. How in the bubble do you have to be to not see how the reality is for most Americans?

I'm a democrat, always have been, always will be, but I'm also not delusional. The democratic party isn't perfect.

[Eros]

Y'all & these paragraphs!

Mike, bruh, you got them overe here trippin over themselves to educate you!

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Wafflecakes

Oh please. Bernie hasn't accomplished **** during his decades in congress while the Dem party has led the country to great strides forward on numerous issues.

Bernie is a piss stain of a "progressive".

I can't at how delusional most of you are in this thread.

You only look at everything one way and are under the impression that the democratic party does no wrong. Get over yourselves.

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Eros

Y'all & these paragraphs!

Mike, bruh, you got them overe here trippin over themselves to educate you!

Well just remember what I said when Trump is elected into office later this year (or at least comes very close).

[Eros]

Originally posted by Mike91

You really need proof?

Look around. Look a why Trump is the republican nominee. Look at why Bernie went from 2% in the polls to where he is now. He's likely going to end up with half of the states won. How in the bubble do you have to be to not see how the reality is for most Americans?

I'm a democrat, always have been, always will be, but I'm also not delusional. The democratic party isn't perfect.

No, I want statistical proof on all your claims in that post.

Its very easy to sling statements like that otherwise, anyone can do it!

Also what you're saying in this post has almost nothing to do with your original post at all. But I guess Bernie taught you!

[Wafflecakes]

Originally posted by Mike91

I can't at how delusional most of you are in this thread.

You only look at everything one way and are under the impression that the democratic party does no wrong. Get over yourselves.

No one ever said the dem party does no wrong. It seems your reading comprehension skills are lacking, which might explain why you are a web warrior for Bernie.

The dem party has failed on a number of issues, but compared to Bernie, who has made NO progress on the issues and is willing to put his personal ego trip above the issues, they are damn saints.

[Retro]

But y'all, take a look at what Mike said and think from the standpoint of someone who's not interested in politics. Someone who's got student loan debt and isn't able to make ends meet in maybe their first job out of college, or is working hard through college. Someone who is being profiled for their racial, sexual, or gender identity and sees no signs of progress on their end.

I think that what should be taken from his post is that this is totally what it FEELS like, even for Democrats - people can't be faulted for pointing out that they're not seeing benefits. Sure, Democrats can't do much right now, they can't fix it - but this is where the anger comes from! This is the source on both sides of Bernie and Trump, from people with radically different views but who are experiencing a lot of the same inability to succeed and the same frustrations.

That anger might be rooted in perception, but it definitely comes from somewhere.

[Flare]

Originally posted by Retro

I have had about ****ing enough of this goddamn "big bad condescending mean Retro" attitude and it's not going to continue.



I don't see how it's getting so horrible that Hillary has supporters who disagree with what is being said and offer counterarguments. The idea of open dialogue isn't a one way street and doesn't exclude the majority group. It isn't in opposition to the majority group. It includes and is influenced by that majority group. Sure, personal hate is a problem, but since your post directly quotes lines about ME, I will note that I have kept it to facts and logic.

As for hostility, forgive me if I take these discussions as seriously as if they were about electing the next leader of this country. Forgive me if I don't quite like to tolerate misinformation about the candidate I support and work for.



Let me discuss what I want to when I want to and if you don't like it don't quote me.

It is my view that Johnson will NOT get significant support in the general election, and it is a fact that he is he is NOT consistently polling at 10% when a very reliable agency placed him at 4% two weeks ago.

I can challenge ANY claim or point of view I want and nobody gets a special little "get out of Retro's posts for free" card. If I so choose to challenge what a poster is saying, that is my right and I am fully allowed to do so within the rules of this site. As long as I maintain a certain level of respect and adhere to the rules, I will be here arguing with anything I see as wrong. I will not apologize for that.

You can call that condescending or you can see it as literally exactly what you're all advocating now, since "everyone" being able to engage in an open dialogue includes me, but what you're surely going to do is deal with it.

----

Now, about the bigger picture you're all talking about with this being a "Hillary echo chamber" - which I see as a hostile term for "place where people who support Hillary happen to all be posting because it is open and public and they have that right" - let's address that, shall we?

If you want actual political discussion, people could start by actually discussing what policies would best benefit our country and how they would do so. They could start by debating the way that the system works rather than screaming "RIGGED" and "ESTABLISHMENT" at the top of their lungs as people are so prone to doing in this cycle. They could start by not giving credence to trolls like ezra (who, by the way, is now permanently banned from this site for unrelated reasons) or digging into Hillary and "how bad this looks" or "how low those poll numbers are" without sources, without backup, and without actual arguments.

I haven't seen a whole lot of capacity for legitimate political discussion in this thread when the opposition to the frontrunner for both the Democratic nomination and the Presidency is unwilling to treat her as a legitimate political entity, and would rather talk about skeletons that haven't been in the closet for years. I haven't seen a whole lot of capacity for intellectual debate when factual assertions are derided as being "condescending" or "not true" when they are sourced and are fully logical and correct.

If you think this is becoming an echo chamber for Hillary's supporters, maybe it's because we haven't engaged in anyone who has legitimately challenged her candidacy or proposals. Maybe it's because a legitimate majority of politically-engaged ATRLers support her and collaborate in defending her and discussing further ways she can develop her platform and candidacy. Maybe it's because there is a constant stream of misinformation regarding her actions and candidacy, a constant stream of negativity coming from all directions about her poll numbers or her presentation in a debate or this misinformed article about this scandal or that scandal or - um, you get the point. We clarify. We correct the record. We discuss these issues. If you do not want to engage in that discussion, do not engage - post about something else relevant to these elections and by doing so, engage in another.

But to expect that you will not be directly and, depending on your own claims or tones, sharply criticized and challenged? That is not realistic or appropriate. To expect that you should be free of the "attacks" of Hillary supporters when they are in the majority on this forum? That is not realistic. You don't get to seal yourself off and have what essentially constitutes a "Hillary doesn't have this support" echo chamber. We ALL collaborate in analyzing, criticizing, and debating the entire political system, including specific individual candidates.

As a message to anyone who feels that I've been too "condescending" or what have you: get over it, and talk about the issues. I will not make accommodations in tone for you.

Not this post proving exactly the point of my post. The amount of condescending behavior and rejection of any ideal but your own here is startling. Being a progressive doesn't mean being entitled and rude. For the official record I wasn't directing my post at you. If I was, I would have directly said your name. I had no problem doing it in the past so, I wouldn't start indirectly addressing you now. So it's interesting seeing how much vitriol you came at me with for a post that's not even about you.

With that said, if you want people to actually have productive (key word here) political discussion of differing opinions, how about not biting the head off of people before hearing them out. The simple logic of "shut them down completely" before they even say more than a full statement (i.e Damien's first post which was only one sentence long and your aggressive response literally slanting his whole character). You're already coming with this abrasive mindset for no real reason. The topic was about polling and you went all in like we were talking something actually serious like abortion, education, health care, etc. That's just mind blowing how you feel it's ok to rudely come for people all in (especially on the topic of polling of all things) then say "Well it's the election so, it's justified". Not sure how you expect any productive conversation if that's the route you're taking (see: Damien's response insulting you as proof your methods only make people upset, it's fishing for that kind of attention instead of a real response).

[ThePopPrince]

Originally posted by Mike91

I can't at how delusional most of you are in this thread.

You only look at everything one way and are under the impression that the democratic party does no wrong. Get over yourselves.

No1 is claiming the dem party do no wrong but just because they occasionaly do doesn't give people that have no respect for the party the right to back seat drive it.

I'm a US citizen studying abroad & it's horrifying to me watching people that have little knowledge on the system try and make demands of the party that theircandidiate only just joined in 2015

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Wafflecakes

No one ever said the dem party does no wrong. It seems your reading comprehension skills are lacking, which might explain why you are a web warrior for Bernie.

The dem party has failed on a number of issues, but compared to Bernie, who has made NO progress on the issues and is willing to put his personal ego trip above the issues, they are damn saints.

Really? Personal attacks and trying to claim I can't comprehend? If you want to get into a debate, then let's ****ing do it. Don't sit here and try and act like I don't know what the **** I'm talking about. And I ain't no web warrior for Bernie. I don't even talk about him outside of this thread. Not to mention, I've already expressed my support for Hillary.

But I'm not going to sit around and pretend that there aren't real problems that aren't being addressed and dealt with. Get off the internet, take off the rose colored glasses, and experience the real world for a bit and maybe YOU'LL have a better understanding of things that aren't typed in articles online.

[LuLuDrops]

Originally posted by LuLuDrops

Federal Judge Orders Release Of Documents In Trump University Suit

A federal judge is ordering the release of Trump University internal documents in a class-action lawsuit against the now-defunct real estate school owned by presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump.

The order by U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel in San Diego, which came Friday in response to a request by The Washington Post, calls for the documents to be released by Thursday. The Post reported the order in a story on its website Saturday.

Trump University has been cited in anti-Trump political ads during the primary campaign as evidence that Trump doesn't fulfill his promises. Trump's lawyers deny any wrongdoing in the case before Curiel as well as another class-action suit in San Diego and a $40 million lawsuit filed in 2013 by the state of New York alleging that more than 5,000 people had been defrauded.

The New York real estate mogul, for his part, has claimed that Curiel is a "hater of Donald Trump" and should be ashamed of how he has handled the case. Trump also has questioned whether Curiel, who is Hispanic, is biased against him because of his call for deporting immigrants in the U.S. illegally.

The lawsuit overseen by Curiel states that Trump University's nationwide seminars and classes were like infomercials and pressured students to buy more but didn't deliver as promised in spite of students paying as much as $35,000 for seminars. Curiel already has set a Nov. 28 trial date.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ju...y-docs-release

Let me perch.

Bump

Thoughts?

[Eros]

Originally posted by Retro

But y'all, take a look at what Mike said and think from the standpoint of someone who's not interested in politics. Someone who's got student loan debt and isn't able to make ends meet in maybe their first job out of college, or is working hard through college. Someone who is being profiled for their racial, sexual, or gender identity and sees no signs of progress on their end.

I think that what should be taken from his post is that this is totally what it FEELS like, even for Democrats - people can't be faulted for pointing out that they're not seeing benefits. Sure, Democrats can't do much right now, they can't fix it - but this is where the anger comes from! This is the source on both sides of Bernie and Trump, from people with radically different views but who are experiencing a lot of the same inability to succeed and the same frustrations.

That anger might be rooted in perception, but it definitely comes from somewhere.

I'll even admit, technically I have nothing to complain about. I have a decent job, no student debt (for now until I get a second degree), etc but that doesn't mean I don't understand where Bernie and his followers are coming from. Ir's very easy to be in the bubble and unfortunately that's exactly where people like Barney Frank, etc are.

and also im not dismissing that very real frustration many people face when it comes to the political process. but what i've gathered from this specific poster is a penchant for dramatics and being particularly contrarian for no real reason other than to spark arguments.

also his discussions are structured on very shallow points of discussion that incite a very real response non the less because of the format we're using (a forum, not face to face).

[LuLuDrops]

Trump coming after not only the plaintiffs but the judge as well