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Discussion: Has Beyoncé already surpassed Mariah and Whitney?
Member Since: 4/4/2014
Posts: 1,038
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Not sure if she has already surpassed them, but she definitely will towards the end of her career. She'll probably surpass Madonna too.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
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In what way though?
Nothing on Lemonade is ground breaking musically or thematically. Beyoncé is not the first artist to use the music video medium to tell a story. In fact, there are other artists who did it much better.
But see, here is the difference. We have already seen the impact Whitney's branding has had on the industry. You are merely assuming Beyoncé will have impact on the industry through her branding. IVYPARK could easily flop a year from now. Take Tidal. That was an ambitious move that everyone thought would revolutionize the industry, and it's clearly done no such thing. You all are prematurely predicting the success of Beyoncé. Whitney's success and impact is already visible in that realm. Which is why Beyoncé has not surpassed or matched anything. And again, Beyoncé is not the first hands-on artist. There are a slew of artists who are and have been much more hands-on than she has been.
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Why is your argument so rooted in "she was not the first"! I never said she was. And if that's what you really want to use to determine things then most of what Whitney did was not "the first" either.
But Lemonade stands out in a major way from anyone else. The theme doesn't have to be totally new (what is) for it to be an important piece of art, and in fact I would say that it is rather new: approaching racism through the story of a broken relationship, intersectional examining how race in America affects the feelings of a woman scorned, how history are not just from one generation but are passed down, how redemption and moving forward can be the key to keeping your sanity and your life as you want it together, how empowerment as a black woman can relate to personal struggle as well as political strife...
I do agree that we haven't fully seen the impact of Beyoncé so it's unfair to say. So this thread in a way is kind of pointless and every argument is pointless but here we are and this is all subjective anyways so there we have it. But IVYPARK's success isn't what defines it as an important part in her career, its that it is a powerful collaboration between one woman and one of the biggest companies on earth. It was her idea. What this says is sky is the limit. Anyway ya it's all too soon to tell.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
So? Etta was still subversive even if black women had been singing about sex. So long as sex was not a topic okay by society for them to sing, it's subversive.
The logic you're using would also imply that it's not important that Whitney broke into films because black women had been doing that for decades. It still is a major, important achievement.
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Black women singing about sex has never NOT been ok. The issue with sex has primarily been with how it's been delivered.
And no, my logic would not imply that at all. Because again, she furthered what already existed.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Ah, Chimier. Try not to be so proudly unintellectual, it's no good for the wellbeing of the board!
I'll PM you a reading list when I have the time. We'll start with some basic cultural theory, might get to the musical end of things before March.
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You just said that Diana Ross and Donna Summer didn't get criticism for singing pop music. Don't talk to me about being unintellectual when you could've researched something so simple by just clicking on Google. Minnie Riperton actually got some of the same flack too. Well, look at that.
And we won't even get into your nonsense about Aretha and her singing style. Stay in your lane.
Please, stay out of my inbox. I don't want it tainted.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
I said that The Supremes were the first black crossover artists. And by that I mean completely crossing over and sustaining it.I did NOT say that Lena was not important or that she did not crossover in some ways.
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The Supremes being the first crossover black acts and The Supremes being the first black act to sustain crossover success are two completely different things. The Supremes were not the first black artists to have crossover success. They may have been the most successful up to that point, but they were not the first, as you originally said. Changing your answer to "sustaining" does not absolve your original statement.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
And your dismissal of something like clothing brands or perfumes because artists didn't have them is like dismissing Whitney for executive producing because people like Diana weren't doing that prior. We're talking about expanding on what has been done and taking it further, no? That's what this is.
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It's not about dismissing anything. Kudos to Beyoncé for having a successful perfume and her own clothing line. Those are great accomplishments for her. The point is, those accomplishments have not impacted the industry the way Whitney's has. That's the point of this discussion. Seeing how Beyoncé's accomplishments line up next to Whitney and Mariah's and clearly they fall short in comparison.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 9,498
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Won't even bother to read this thread but her discography is already better so yep
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Please, stay out of my inbox. I don't want it tainted.
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But you're thinking in such literal terms! Subtext is essential! Time isn't linear! Free your mind and your booty will follow! Apples could be eaten and knowledge attained! And then... "Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronn tuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnu k"! Fall from Eden.
Oh, alright then. Spoily-sports. 
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Ah, the crux of the matter. I strongly disagree, especially with regard to people as pointless as Whitney and Mariah. Beyoncé's vocal delivery (expounded on earlier by her Defender of the Beyth) and occasional musical experimentation, feminist politics, racial politics, and negotiation of American capitalist ideals and markets make her far more valuable to the culture at large than Whitney and Mariah ever were.
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I mean, according to this logic, then Beyonce is far more valuable to culture than ANY black female artist in HISTORY.
She is singing about things Whitney and Mariah never did, experimenting in genres and styles of music that they never did. She has more commercial and financial clout than most black female singers have ever had. Wow. We can close the thread now. Beyonce wins. The most culturally significant black female artist in history.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
But you're thinking in such literal terms! Subtext is essential! Time isn't linear! Free your mind and your booty will follow! Apples could be eaten and knowledge attained! And then... "Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronn tuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnu k"! Fall from Eden.
Oh, alright then. Spoily-sports. |
You don't really follow social cues well, do you?
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
The Supremes being the first crossover black acts and The Supremes being the first black act to sustain crossover success are two completely different things. The Supremes were not the first black artists to have crossover success. They may have been the most successful up to that point, but they were not the first, as you originally said. Changing your answer to "sustaining" does not absolve your original statement.
It's not about dismissing anything. Kudos to Beyoncé for having a successful perfume and her own clothing line. Those are great accomplishments for her. The point is, those accomplishments have not impacted the industry the way Whitney's has. That's the point of this discussion. Seeing how Beyoncé's accomplishments line up next to Whitney and Mariah's and clearly they fall short in comparison.
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I didn't change it.
I just expanded on what I said since you didn't understand the meaning.
To me, crossing over a bit or in some ways is not crossing over.
The Supremes TOTALLY crossed over. Thus, they were the first black crossover act and if I don't specify (to sustain it) then that doesn't change the meaning.
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
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Aw, don't give in like that! You're better when you're feisty and venomous, Chimier.
It's 1am here, I'm going to sleep now. Keep on truckin'.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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I'm leaving.
Goodbye.
This has gotten too cyclical (as always) to the point that everyone is just repeating the same things they said over and over.
But Beyoncé is without a doubt the HBIC of her generation so. TTYL.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 11,808
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There is room on this Earth for many queens
Whitney Houston is on the new Earth singing in the Lord's choir with MJ and Prince, unbothered
Mariah Carey is somewhere having a glass of champagne focused on her life and career, unbothered
Beyonce is somewhere reviewing her plan for world domination and the enslavement of humanity, unbothered
let everybody be great
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 14,099
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She's surpassed Whitney but not Mariah.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Aw, don't give in like that! You're better when you're feisty and venomous, Chimier.
It's 1am here, I'm going to sleep now. Keep on truckin'.
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Awww I wish I cared.
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Member Since: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1,548
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crescendolls.
Won't even bother to read this thread but her discography is already better so yep
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Awww I wish I cared.
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That's more like it, sweets.
Nighty-night!
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Member Since: 6/19/2012
Posts: 29,579
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yes. she has a vision and a commitment to it unlike whitney and mariah, with the raw talent needed to see it through
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Why is your argument so rooted in "she was not the first"! I never said she was. And if that's what you really want to use to determine things then most of what Whitney did was not "the first" either.
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It's rooted in "first" because you're the one who said Lemonade serves as a blueprint for pop albums. With grandiose statements like that, I'm expecting there to be something musically I had never heard before, but alas...
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
But Lemonade stands out in a major way from anyone else. The theme doesn't have to be totally new (what is) for it to be an important piece of art, and in fact I would say that it is rather new: approaching racism through the story of a broken relationship, intersectional examining how race in America affects the feelings of a woman scorned, how history are not just from one generation but are passed down, how redemption and moving forward can be the key to keeping your sanity and your life as you want it together, how empowerment as a black woman can relate to personal struggle as well as political strife...
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You'd think Lemonade was What's Going On with this over-analyzation. Lemonade is just an album about relationships with one socially conscious song on it. And everything you listed has already been addressed musically long before there was a Lemonade. Your limited musical knowledge is rather laughable to say the least.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Mr. Fahrenheit you're a great writer.
And you've brought up an amazing point: for all the success and impact of Mariah and Whitney, except for their brilliant voices, the songs don't exactly belong to them from a perspective standpoint (with some exceptions of course).
I'm not sure this answers the question of the OP but its an interesting difference in how these women have approached their careers, either due to the times they functioned in or due to the approach their management took them in. Destiny's Child, although also very managed, was encouraged from the very start to be involved in the musical creation and to have a specific voice unique to them from their perspectives and that has translated even to today for Beyoncé. Even when her albums are explicitly not her voice, you still feel like that's what she's talking about (B'Day, Single Ladies).
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Wait wait wait wait wait.
#1- Whitney and Mariah sing the songs they do because they were invested in them and wanted to tell their stories.
#2- Whitney was primarily an interpreter. Meaning...every time she put her voice to a song, she was giving HER perspective on the song through her delivery (her phrasing, the vocal nuances, the way she'd color and embellish specific parts of the song, her sense of timing).
#3- Is Mariah Carey NOT a major songwriter? So how in the WORLD do her songs not belong to her from a perspective standpoint? LOL. You're bragging about what DC were taught, then claiming that one of pop's major singer-songwriters has no perspective in her music.
Y'all really just be TALKING.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
That's more like it, sweets.
Nighty-night! |
You said you were going to sleep, then stayed up for almost another 10 minutes to see if I would respond? Awww how creepy.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
I didn't change it.
I just expanded on what I said since you didn't understand the meaning.
To me, crossing over a bit or in some ways is not crossing over.
The Supremes TOTALLY crossed over. Thus, they were the first black crossover act and if I don't specify (to sustain it) then that doesn't change the meaning.
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So you changed your original statement in an attempt to refute mines? Gotcha.
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Member Since: 8/22/2011
Posts: 490
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Chimier better dragggggg
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