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Poll: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?
View Poll Results: I think that
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Yes, she identifies as a girl
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165 |
63.46% |
No, she still has a penis and should use the uni-sex bathroom
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95 |
36.54% |
Member Since: 4/22/2009
Posts: 11,768
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If transpeople are "trapped in the wrong body," why does this girl want to put her untransitioned body on display in a communal shower?
Hell, I wish I could've had the private changing room option in gym.
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Member Since: 5/2/2012
Posts: 15,418
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qwerty1234
Well, what about when that person doesn't have the appearance of their identified gender? That is the issue here. What about when a trans-teen, when she's just showered and is naked and make up free, looks like a boy in a girl's bathroom? (Or is disrobing and looks just like a boy?)
Would your reply then be, "Well she can use communal showers only IF there are privacy curtains", wouldn't having to use privacy curtains because of Lila, give the signal that she ISN'T just like the other girls anyways?
And regarding safety, Lila wasn't being forced to use the man's bathroom. She was offered the use of a unisex bathroom. She declined.
And secondly, you make men bathrooms sound extremely evil, so then what about a transteen that has a vagina but identiifes as a boy. Would you then say to him wth his vagina and breasts"NO don't use man showers, it's disruptive, it's not safe,"?? And if ur answer is YES to that question, why isn't it disruptive for Lila to use the girl's bathroom?
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I've acknowledged many of these points in previous posts, but again, yes -- if someone is trans and is obviously assimilating their appearance to outwardly indicate to people their identified gender then yes, they should be allowed to use gender specific facilities accordingly.
I acknowledged anything involving full nudity in this case is a sensitive issue and don't purport to have a perfect solution; that's the only one that wouldn't involve forcing her to use unisex facilities. Yes, using privacy curtains when they previously weren't used would definitely signal there's a diference; however, that's the only solution that wouldn't involve Lila having to be relegated to going across the building to change in the teachers' bathroom. Beyond that, I don't see that as any different from there already being stalls in bathrooms where girls already have privacy from other girls when having to disrobe to use the toilet, anyway.
Showering to me seems beside the point anyhow, as nobody is able to clarify whether or not showering is even an issue and it hasn't once been mentioned as a normal locker room routine for that school in any of the sources documenting this particular case so I'm not sure why people are so determined to keep circling back to that. I suppose because it's the most extreme and easiest to argue against as full nudity is the most sensitive scenario, but I don't even think it's really an issue here and gave my opinion on possible solutions.
As for the other part, I acknowledged I was speaking in general terms as this issue extends to other public facilities as well regardless of what the school offered given that there are countries, states and cities with laws and ordinances specifically in place mandating that people use restrooms in accordance with their biological sex and not identified gender.
And I did not make men's bathrooms sound evil, but it's extremely dense not to acknowledge the massively and inordinately high statistics for abuse on trans (especially trans women/girls) people and forcing them to regularly enter bathrooms where they may possibly be put at greater risk for having something happen. To say that there is greater risk associated with putting a particular person in a particular situation is not automatically saying that all men would harm them; that's just arguing a point that wasn't stated or even implied to begin with.
Unisex bathrooms are not a solution for a number of reasons I've already acknowledged -- I'm a woman and I'm not comfortable with the idea of using unisex bathrooms for a host of reasons and I'm sure many trans women feel the same way. There is no completely perfect solution to this type of thing as being born in the wrong body is an imperfect situation and there are people that won't fully accept or won't fully feel comfortable dealing as it's tough for many people to understand things they can't relate to; however, I don't feel like someone's comfort should override someone else's rights and potential safety.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 5/28/2011
Posts: 39,615
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Quote:
Originally posted by Legend ReX
If transpeople are "trapped in the wrong body," why does this girl want to put her untransitioned body on display in a communal shower?
Hell, I wish I could've had the private changing room option in gym.
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Not everyone can afford SRS.
And she'd trying to change/use the bathroom/shower. She's not putting on a show for people.
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Member Since: 4/22/2009
Posts: 11,768
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Quote:
Originally posted by X/O/X/O
Not everyone can afford SRS.
And she'd trying to change/use the bathroom/shower. She's not putting on a show for people.
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You realize people shower naked, right? If I didn't like my own body, I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where other people would be able to see it. That just makes sense.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 5/28/2011
Posts: 39,615
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Quote:
Originally posted by Legend ReX
You realize people shower naked, right? If I didn't like my own body, I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where other people would be able to see it. That just makes sense.
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I'm a lot more concerned about all you people that stare at other people when they're trying to shower or change at this point.
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Posts: 9,704
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Quote:
Originally posted by XtinaPanicGodney
If she identifies as a girl, she is a girl. How hard is that to grasp?
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This statement just raises my eyebrow a bit. Can we stop acting like we have barbie genitals and being a woman or a man is not a thing? While I get what you're saying, it's not as simple as you're trying to make it seem.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 5/28/2011
Posts: 39,615
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mani.
This statement just raises my eyebrow a bit. Can we stop acting like we have barbie genitals and being a woman or a man is not a thing? While I get what you're saying, it's not as simple as you're trying to make it seem.
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It is, though.
Your gender isn't limited to your body.
Yes, it's true that a majority of people have a gender that corresponds to the sex of their body, but you can't say someone is a man if they identify as a woman just because of their body. They can't help that.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 1,473
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
The ''sexual organs'' will never be the same as a female. However she can have a vagina and boobs. Does that still make her a male if she had both due to not having those same biological sex organs?
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No. If she gets a vagina and boobs then I would consider her a woman because she is a woman. My only issue is when they haven't fully transitioned. If they have sex characteristics of both a man and a woman like thi teenager has, then they aren't ome or the other and should use the a gender bathroom.
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Posts: 9,704
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Quote:
Originally posted by X/O/X/O
It is, though.
Your gender isn't limited to your body.
Yes, it's true that a majority of people have a gender that corresponds to the sex of their body, but you can't say someone is a man if they identify as a woman just because of their body. They can't help that.
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But even just identifying as a different gender does not change the male/female counterparts you were born with. That's why the statement just seems a little unrealistic to me. I think people have a right to identify with what they want, but in a world where genders do exist, it's not that simple to say "I identify as" and have everyone comfortable with that.
As I stated above, I wouldn't give a rats ass, but everyone doesn't see it that way.
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Member Since: 9/9/2012
Posts: 512
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How about this: Unless you yourself are transgender or genderqueer, you should have no say over trans rights. It's a lot easier to THINK you know trans issues rather than LIVING with trans issues. / close this thread please.
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Member Since: 5/2/2012
Posts: 15,418
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Quote:
Originally posted by deadautumncrow
How about this: Unless you yourself are transgender or genderqueer, you should have no say over trans rights. It's a lot easier to THINK you know trans issues rather than LIVING with trans issues. / close this thread please.
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It's important for people that aren't trans to consider, discuss and try to understand as much about living with trans issues as possible considering their opinions (and more importantly things like their votes/politics) are overwhelmingly going to affect the rights of trans people. To say that you have to be something in order to be concerned with it is very problematic and that way of thinking perpetuates the ignorance that causes many of the issues being discussed here.
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Member Since: 9/9/2012
Posts: 512
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ascension
It's important for people that aren't trans to consider, discuss and try to understand as much about living with trans issues as possible considering their opinions (and more importantly things like their votes/politics) are overwhelmingly going to affect the rights of trans people. To say that you have to be something in order to be concerned with it is very problematic and that way of thinking perpetuates the ignorance that causes many of the issues being discussed here.
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Oh I completely agree that cis people need to educate themselves and understand trans issues. What I'm saying is: why should cisgender people be able to decide the outcome of trans issues without fully understanding all that comes with it? As a trans girl, why should I have to put my issues in the hands of people who don't understand who I am? I should compare it to a preschooler taking algebra 2; they just won't get it. Cis people who claim that "she has a penis so she's a male" need to be educated and learn how difficult it is to live as a trans person in a cis world before being able to decide if one girl should be able to use her school's god damn bathroom. If these cis people were to educate themselves, the vote would be almost unanimously "yes", but sadly, transphobia and ignorance is prominent among cis people. Glad the majority voted yes; shows that some people are educated.
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Member Since: 9/2/2012
Posts: 7,210
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Quote:
Originally posted by Legend ReX
You realize people shower naked, right? If I didn't like my own body, I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where other people would be able to see it. That just makes sense.
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This isn't a gym, this is high school. they have 5 minutes (or 8 depending on w/e) to get between classes, ain't no one have time for showers. I doubt highly that they are going to be getting naked.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 9,153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sasha.
GENDER IDENTITY =/= GENITALIA
please atrl, for the love of god
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I'm really sorry, but Gender in the most scientific term IS about Genitalia. It is harsh, but that is the honest truth. There is no way around that BUT
Identifying as a particular gender is fine. Lila is a she and for all intents and purposes, she is a she. But she is biologically a male. And we have Gender toilets based on the difference in biology. Lila using a female toilet is going against why Genders have their own toilets.
It is a really hard issue, and I can understand the frustration. But you need to lower the pro-trans hate, and realize that the issue remains that yes, she can identify as a female, but when it comes to genitalia, which is why toilets are separated, Lila has different genitalia, which is why other people get uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, she has a penis, and the idea of gender based toilets is not based on who you are, but what you have.
Also, buys being in girls bathrooms, is different than girls being in guys bathrooms.
If a trans male came into the school showers and stripped off showing a women body, how do you think that will go down? In high school especially?
I can understand where she comes from, but Lila seems to miss what the point of Gender based toilets are. We might as well remove the signs and make everything Unisex. If you're going to walk in to a females bathroom and see penis' we may as well remove the sign. Identifying as female, doesn't resolve the issue that you are still biologically a male.
Call me a transphobe, I don't care. I literally am in a circle of friends who are trans, and perform drag and are in that social discrimination now. But at the same time, all but one (who is the youngest) understand the reason behind Gender based toilets. It's because of a difference in genitalia.
One of my friends said it best as, they don't see a male or female sign when you walk up to a toilet door. They see a Penis and Vagina door, sad but true. And they are quite happy to see it that way. But a lot of them are still wanting Unisex toilets, something Australia lacks.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 1,473
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Quote:
Originally posted by gloamingtheplain
I'm really sorry, but Gender in the most scientific term IS about Genitalia. It is harsh, but that is the honest truth. There is no way around that BUT
Identifying as a particular gender is fine. Lila is a she and for all intents and purposes, she is a she. But she is biologically a male. And we have Gender toilets based on the difference in biology. Lila using a female toilet is going against why Genders have their own toilets.
It is a really hard issue, and I can understand the frustration. But you need to lower the pro-trans hate, and realize that the issue remains that yes, she can identify as a female, but when it comes to genitalia, which is why toilets are separated, Lila has different genitalia, which is why other people get uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, she has a penis, and the idea of gender based toilets is not based on who you are, but what you have.
Also, buys being in girls bathrooms, is different than girls being in guys bathrooms.
If a trans male came into the school showers and stripped off showing a women body, how do you think that will go down? In high school especially?
I can understand where she comes from, but Lila seems to miss what the point of Gender based toilets are. We might as well remove the signs and make everything Unisex. If you're going to walk in to a females bathroom and see penis' we may as well remove the sign. Identifying as female, doesn't resolve the issue that you are still biologically a male.
Call me a transphobe, I don't care. I literally am in a circle of friends who are trans, and perform drag and are in that social discrimination now. But at the same time, all but one (who is the youngest) understand the reason behind Gender based toilets. It's because of a difference in genitalia.
One of my friends said it best as, they don't see a male or female sign when you walk up to a toilet door. They see a Penis and Vagina door, sad but true. And they are quite happy to see it that way. But a lot of them are still wanting Unisex toilets, something Australia lacks.
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/endthread
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Member Since: 9/2/2012
Posts: 7,210
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Quote:
Originally posted by gloamingtheplain
I'm really sorry, but Gender in the most scientific term IS about Genitalia. It is harsh, but that is the honest truth. There is no way around that BUT
Identifying as a particular gender is fine. Lila is a she and for all intents and purposes, she is a she. But she is biologically a male. And we have Gender toilets based on the difference in biology. Lila using a female toilet is going against why Genders have their own toilets.
It is a really hard issue, and I can understand the frustration. But you need to lower the pro-trans hate, and realize that the issue remains that yes, she can identify as a female, but when it comes to genitalia, which is why toilets are separated, Lila has different genitalia, which is why other people get uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, she has a penis, and the idea of gender based toilets is not based on who you are, but what you have.
Also, buys being in girls bathrooms, is different than girls being in guys bathrooms.
If a trans male came into the school showers and stripped off showing a women body, how do you think that will go down? In high school especially?
I can understand where she comes from, but Lila seems to miss what the point of Gender based toilets are. We might as well remove the signs and make everything Unisex. If you're going to walk in to a females bathroom and see penis' we may as well remove the sign. Identifying as female, doesn't resolve the issue that you are still biologically a male.
Call me a transphobe, I don't care. I literally am in a circle of friends who are trans, and perform drag and are in that social discrimination now. But at the same time, all but one (who is the youngest) understand the reason behind Gender based toilets. It's because of a difference in genitalia.
One of my friends said it best as, they don't see a male or female sign when you walk up to a toilet door. They see a Penis and Vagina door, sad but true. And they are quite happy to see it that way. But a lot of them are still wanting Unisex toilets, something Australia lacks.
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A penis...and vagina door....
Like some people here have mentioned before, gender is a mental construct before it is a biological construct.
Also, who walks into a bathroom and see's genitalia? I'm just curious.
In a locker room she'll be getting down to her underwear. No one is getting naked.
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Member Since: 9/9/2012
Posts: 512
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Quote:
Originally posted by gloamingtheplain
I'm really sorry, but Gender in the most scientific term IS about Genitalia. It is harsh, but that is the honest truth. There is no way around that
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Actually, no. For humans, It's becoming more and more evident in the medical field that SEX is genitalia but GENDER is identity. That's why you ask for an infants SEX at birth. Gender is a different social construct. Why don't you do some research before you act like you know something, sis... T.
If cis people take one thing away from trans issues it should be this: Sex=/=Gender. Sex defines your body. Gender defines your mind. Ask your local therapist/psychologist/scientist; they'll educate you.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by deadautumncrow
Actually, no. For humans, It's becoming more and more evident in the medical field that SEX is genitalia but GENDER is identity. That's why you ask for an infants SEX at birth. Gender is a different social construct. Why don't you do some research before you act like you know something, sis... T.
If cis people take one thing away from trans issues it should be this: Sex=Gender. Sex defines your body. Gender defines your mind. Ask your local therapist/psychologist/scientist; they'll educate you.
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I was JUST about to say this.
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Member Since: 11/20/2010
Posts: 7,042
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Yes. But I see straight boys ruining it trying to be funny.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 4,199
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of course not
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