|
Discussion: Has Beyoncé already surpassed Mariah and Whitney?
Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
|
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Lena Horne hardly crossed over in the way the Supremes did. And if she did, that doesn't change the point which is that Whitney owned more than just a little to Diana. And I know that other artists crossed over but not with the huge fame and impact of the Supremes, as has been said they were second only to the Beatles. They were HUGE in a way black artists had not been.
|
Lena Horne was the black style icon of all style icons. She had success in music, film and television before Diana. There's no denying that Diana cultivated the "diva" image, but she was not the first stylish black icon. Lena played an important role during the Civil Rights movement. She fought against racism and broke down barriers before and for Diana Ross. You can't say she was the first for things that should not be attributed to her. And you mentioned The Beatles, and Whitney broke their record for 7 consecutive # 1's. Proving that Whitney took it further.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Beyoncé has endorsements, yes, but she also has a huge personal brand. The best selling celebrity perfume, as one example. The others are her massive deal for IVYPARK.
|
What does any of this have to do with entertainment? Whitney's brand included executive producing for television and film, something she was doing at the same age as Beyoncé is now. And Whitney's brand actually benefitted other artists to succeed, as previously mentioned. Whitney hand picking Brandy for Cinderella made Brandy the first black Cinderella and gave her her own doll. What did a perfume and IVYPARK do for the industry? What did it do besides fatten Beyoncé's pockets? Artists did not have perfumes back then so I don't even know why that was mentioned.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
And ok I get the point about acclaim but then show which Whitney and Mariah albums had such universal acclaim then. We can talk about acclaim without metacritic.
|
Again, acclaim is not just about album reviews. Whitney is known as The Voice and a standard for singing. No album reviews can take the place of that.
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/3/2011
Posts: 7,281
|
BEYONCE is bigger than both Mariah & Whitney
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/29/2011
Posts: 6,884
|
Quote:
Originally posted by FreeBitch
BEYONCE is bigger than both Mariah & Whitney
|
Soundscan says no.
Billboard says uh-uh.
RIAA says no ma'am pam.
|
|
|
Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
You say "plenty" of black women, then only name Aretha. LOL.
|
The "plenty" was in reference to the number of women I mentioned. Obviously.
Quote:
Aretha's was straight up-gospel, with smatterings of jazz in her rhythmic delivery.
|
You're correct to an extent, but her phrasing and reading of melodies were taken from a pop sensibility, hence the success of singles like "Natural Woman" and "Say a Little Prayer". Goffin and King weren't writing for the church, and Aretha wasn't always singing for it.
Quote:
Whitney was different. Her's was a combination of gospel virtuosity and pop sensibility. Example: How Will I Know. She's floating in the song like Diana Ross would do, delivering the melody very cleanly, sweetly and effortlessly,. But the power and athleticism of her voice is like Aretha. It's almost as if she combined Baby Love and Respect into one song vocally.
And she could apply it to any musical style and make it work: sweeping ballads, dance-pop, slick R&B sounds, both traditional and contemporary. And for the past thirty years, that pop-gospel singing style has defined great pop singing and has been the school where every major vocalist since has graduated from.
|
Is this a good thing? That she essentially took what Aretha did, watered it down, and sold enough records that record executives created more pop singers attempting to recreate her success? You're talking as if she was creating ambient like Brian Eno or introducing atonalism to popular music like the Beatles. Is this not only significant on a commercial level?
Quote:
Etta was a challenging artist? Really? You seem to just be talking. She was subversive in her image. Her look. Her music? Not so much. It was great, high-quality R&B and soul with her singing her heart and her feelings out on wax.
|
I was trying to not make my post too lengthy, the "challenging/subversive/innovative" went across the following women mentioned. I would certainly argue Etta was a subversive presence in popular music not only for her image, but also for some of the subject matter of her music and the way she delivered it. I'm particularly thinking of songs like "The Wallflower" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You", and popular conceptions of black female sexuality in the period.
Quote:
You've named all these different black female artists in an attempt to question and downplay Whitney's contributions, when it's clear you have no idea what their contributions are.
|
You're entirely incorrect.
Quote:
Whitney breaking barriers isn't because she was the biggest of them all. You can be as large as you want and not break through anything. However, Whitney is the biggest, because she not only benefited from the contributions of these women, but she furthered them.
|
So... she was the biggest. And this encouraged other black women to chase opportunities that would allow them to be the biggest. And they were then also very big, across music and acting. And since Whitney, we've been living in a utopic society where black women have everything they want and Beyoncé is in no way furthering the cause while benefiting from Whitney's contributions alongside everyone else's, so Whitney is still more important than Beyoncé even though it could be argued Beyoncé's having a far more tangible impact on the way black women are thought of in the culture as autonomous and fiercely independent beings?
Quote:
Example: would be commercial success. Diana Ross and the Supremes rivaled the Beatles. Donna Summer had multiple #1 and multiplatinum albums.
Whitney came out singing pop and R&B in a very rock-dominated era and outsold her white and male peers, and because of this, ushered in a new era for pop music and singing.
|
You shouldn't have mentioned Donna, who recorded probably the single most influential song in the past forty years of pop music, before talking up Whitney's success with "pop and R&B in a very rock-dominated era"... the 1980s, i.e. the decade of Madge, MJ, Tina, and Prince.
*Tsk* Go ndéana an diabhal dréimire de cnámh do dhroma ag piocadh úll i ngairdín Ifrinn, mo chara.
Quote:
really need to let this mindset go. Not every artist desired to make political statements with their music, or inspire social change, or be against the grain. Most exist to make music and that's that.
|
True! Unfortunately, there's not even any implicit nuance or, y'know, opinion in Whitney's work. Completely empty. No content. Rather unfortunate.
Quote:
And.every.major.artist is manufactured. Even the "unmanufactured" ones. That is the nature of the music industry. Making an image, maintaining an image. It's all manufactured.
|
Have you been reading Adorno? Nah, of course not. Anyway, lemme give some Swedes a call and let them know they shouldn't give Dylan that No Bell yoke 'cuz he's just as manufactured as Whitney, didn'cha know?
Quote:
Because Beyonce has benefited from the barriers broken more than she has broken barriers herself. She has continued to walk in the paths cleared by others, but hasn't furthered the paths themselves.
|
Ah, the crux of the matter. I strongly disagree, especially with regard to people as pointless as Whitney and Mariah. Beyoncé's vocal delivery (expounded on earlier by her Defender of the Beyth) and occasional musical experimentation, feminist politics, racial politics, and negotiation of American capitalist ideals and markets make her far more valuable to the culture at large than Whitney and Mariah ever were.
Quote:
Example: Diana Ross cleared the path for Whitney to have success in Hollywood. At one point, Whitney was the highest-paid actress in Hollywood. Whitney's success in Hollywood led to more studios writing fleshed-out roles for black actresses. Many black actresses have discussed how they started going for main roles because of Whitney Houston. Many film roles she turned down were in turn given to other black actresses to play. Beyonce has furthered this how?
Another example: Mary J. Blige stated how performing with Whitney Houston on VH1 Divas in 1999 strengthened her worldwide presence. Anita Baker stated how black women were not seen as "taboo" anymore in terms of marketability because of Whitney's success. How has Beyonce furthered or surpassed this?
|
You kinda sound like a first-wave feminist dismissing second-wave feminism. "Pankhurst got us the vote, what the shite is Beauvoir doing?!" As Woolf might have put it: Whitney's got black women the room and five hundred a year, Beyoncé's getting black women into the academy.
Quote:
Another example: Whitney Houston was criticized for being "too white" because she sang pop music. And what happened? She kept singing pop. In 2016, black female artists singing pop is no longer an issue (e.g. Beyonce). What exactly has Beyonce furthered or surpassed in that regard? Nothing.
|
Hang on, when was this an issue? Like, ever? Diana Ross, Ronnie Bennett, Donna Summer, Grace Jones, Minnie Riperton all sang pop in very, uh, "pop" voices and were just fine. What happened Whitney was professional jealousy. She rose above it. Good on her.
Quote:
You clearly don't know the cultural significance of the ladies you mentioned before, so you're definitely not going to know Beyonce's.
|
Incorrect entirely, again. I feel as though we're never really going to see eye-to-eye on Whitney, mo chroí, but that's OK. God is your judge.
Quote:
It's part of her story, so....
|
Yeah, but it's more "Mama Cass choking on a sandwich"* than the elegantly wasted downfalls of other great icons.
|
|
|
Member Since: 11/11/2010
Posts: 11,240
|
Beyoncé whom I love is highly overrated. Her music isn't nearly as good as Mariah's or Whitney's. She doesn't come close to having rememberable songs as the two or even her peers. Her fans are the worst. Especially how they try to discredit and shame every black woman in the industry even her own band mates in favor of Bey. The blind worship of her turns me off.
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Which is exactly what I've been saying...why do you keep on repeating things that have already been said?
You seem to be confusing me pointing out that Beyonce hasn't had the same kind of impact on culture and music as Whitney with me requiring them to do similar things. No. They're different artists and different women living in different times. I'm saying that things Beyonce HAS done have in no way equaled what Whitney did.
Artistic and brand perspective....
So Beyonce took Whitney's style of singing and music to the next level? Really?
So Beyonce's brand power has resulted in other black female artists getting the same opportunities to expand their careers outside of music? Because that's the only way she'd be "furthering" what Whitney's doing.
She is continuing to walk on the same path. She's not digging into the ground to fix the cracks and make the path wider. She is, however, creating a little road for herself within the overall path. And that is very commendable.
|
This issue is that you keep nitpicking each sentence by sentence and so we find ourselves in discussions that are too far from the original point of what we're arguing.
As for artistic and brand perspective...
I'm not saying Beyoncé took Whitney's singing style and furthered it. At all. They are completely different. I'm saying that both women are artists and brands and in those sectors Beyoncé has taken it further.
Artistically, Beyoncé has upped the ante in a major way. She's coloured outside the lines so that the blueprint of a pop album is now thought of a bit differently. That goes from the musical content to the supporting videos as well as the release and marketing strategy. Lemonade is a perfect example. It's not just an amazing album but a complete work of art from the musical story to the film itself. It's furthered by her personal voice throughout.
Brand-wise, it's very hard to say something like Beyoncé being the first black person to have a perfume (or one of the first if I'm mistaken) opened the doors for other black women because perhaps if even without her input someone like Rihanna would have done it anyway. But it's also hard to say that it was solely Whitney's influence that got Beyoncé roles in Austin Powers, The Pink Panther or Dreamgirls, because as we well know there have been a long history of black singers as actresses (Diana, Lena, Eartha Kitt, Diahann Carroll, Vanessa Williams, Dorothy Dandridge, etc.). So yes, if Whitney made it so Beyoncé could act, then Beyoncé is making it so that newer young female artists can expand their brands outward not just to perfume and merchandise but in actually setting up entire sub-brands (IVYPARK) with major worldwide corporations that are not partnerships but actual 50/50 relationships, or being at the artistic centre of your world where you are not only involved in writing, but you are producing and co-directing everything as well from the music to the videos to the tour to everything.
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/10/2010
Posts: 1,152
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Why would I discredit someone who is already without credit?
|
Had to sidenote for this. How absurd. To whom is she considered without credit?
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
|
Mr. Fahrenheit you're a great writer.
And you've brought up an amazing point: for all the success and impact of Mariah and Whitney, except for their brilliant voices, the songs don't exactly belong to them from a perspective standpoint (with some exceptions of course).
I'm not sure this answers the question of the OP but its an interesting difference in how these women have approached their careers, either due to the times they functioned in or due to the approach their management took them in. Destiny's Child, although also very managed, was encouraged from the very start to be involved in the musical creation and to have a specific voice unique to them from their perspectives and that has translated even to today for Beyoncé. Even when her albums are explicitly not her voice, you still feel like that's what she's talking about (B'Day, Single Ladies).
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 7,037
|
Damn,this thread is still going When will Beyonce have a classic song as iconic as IWALY or Mariah's Christmas song tho? Those two managed to achieve this early in their careers. Bey's cute lil tour stats will not have longevity like these songs. Nobody's checking for Mozart's concert stats in 2016
|
|
|
Member Since: 4/29/2011
Posts: 6,884
|
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Mr. Fahrenheit you're a great writer.
And you've brought up an amazing point: for all the success and impact of Mariah and Whitney, except for their brilliant voices, the songs don't exactly belong to them from a perspective standpoint (with some exceptions of course).
I'm not sure this answers the question of the OP but its an interesting difference in how these women have approached their careers, either due to the times they functioned in or due to the approach their management took them in. Destiny's Child, although also very managed, was encouraged from the very start to be involved in the musical creation and to have a specific voice unique to them from their perspectives and that has translated even to today for Beyoncé. Even when her albums are explicitly not her voice, you still feel like that's what she's talking about (B'Day, Single Ladies).
|
This makes zero sense. Who did "How Will I Know" belong to, Cissy? I'm assuming "Vision of Love" was Tommy's?
As far as being involved in the creative process, Mariah has actually written more of her catalog than all of her peers sans Prince. Whitney has credits for vocal arrangements, executive production, and chooses what songs to sing and include on her albums. Don't believe she sung whatever was given to her.
|
|
|
Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
|
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Mr. Fahrenheit you're a great writer.
|
tnx hun xx
|
|
|
Member Since: 10/17/2010
Posts: 8,834
|
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 4,395
|
if this hits 50+ pages like the other one
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
The "plenty" was in reference to the number of women I mentioned. Obviously.
|
"There were plenty of black women before her bringing big voices and gospel to pop (Aretha, most significantly)". That's what I was referring to. So you're saying Diana, Bessie, Nina, Tina and Grace Jones did that too? Oh.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
You're correct to an extent, but her phrasing and reading of melodies were taken from a pop sensibility, hence the success of singles like "Natural Woman" and "Say a Little Prayer". Goffin and King weren't writing for the church, and Aretha wasn't always singing for it.
|
Singing for the church and singing church are two different things.
Do you even know what phrasing is? Because Aretha has never not had gospel phrasing in ANYTHING she's sang, except for maybe her pre-Columbia years where she tried to tone it down and had very little commercial success. And you clearly have no understanding of soul music and where it comes from.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Is this a good thing? That she essentially took what Aretha did, watered it down, and sold enough records that record executives created more pop singers attempting to recreate her success? You're talking as if she was creating ambient like Brian Eno or introducing atonalism to popular music like the Beatles. Is this not only significant on a commercial level?
|
"Watered it down"- This is the comment of someone who has no clue about singing whatsoever.
Whitney Houston was influenced by singers outside of Aretha, one example being her cousin Dionne, who was basically a precursor to Whitney, in terms of style and sound. Her musical sound was different to Aretha's and she was her own person, not Aretha 2.0.
And no, it's not, seeing as how her singing style has been extremely influential on singers outside of pop and R&B. Rock singers have cited her as a major influence, jazz and gospel (obviously), even classical. So no.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
I was trying to not make my post too lengthy, the "challenging/subversive/innovative" went across the following women mentioned. I would certainly argue Etta was a subversive presence in popular music not only for her image, but also for some of the subject matter of her music and the way she delivered it. I'm particularly thinking of songs like "The Wallflower" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You", and popular conceptions of black female sexuality in the period.
|
That's not subversive. Black women have been singing about sex since the blues.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
You're entirely incorrect.
|
As we can see, I'm not.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
So... she was the biggest. And this encouraged other black women to chase opportunities that would allow them to be the biggest. And they were then also very big, across music and acting. And since Whitney, we've been living in a utopic society where black women have everything they want and Beyoncé is in no way furthering the cause while benefiting from Whitney's contributions alongside everyone else's, so Whitney is still more important than Beyoncé even though it could be argued Beyoncé's having a far more tangible impact on the way black women are thought of in the culture as autonomous and fiercely independent beings?
|
If Beyonce had a more tangible impact on the way black women are thought in the culture, then we'd be seeing such results in not only music, but other fields. They're not. Black women are still struggling to let their voices be heard.
And clearly, my saying that what Beyonce has done has mainly benefited Beyonce would tell someone smart that it means black artists, especially women, are still struggling. That doesn't erase the fact that Whitney broke down barriers. That only highlights how racist society still is.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
You shouldn't have mentioned Donna, who recorded probably the single most influential song in the past forty years of pop music, before talking up Whitney's success with "pop and R&B in a very rock-dominated era"... the 1980s, i.e. the decade of Madge, MJ, Tina, and Prince.
|
I mentioned Donna for a reason. If it flew over your head, that's too bad.
Tina, who is rock.
Prince, who is also very rock.
MJ...very rock-influenced.
Need I mention the tons of big rock bands and soft rock artists that were all on the scene at that time. There's literally articles on Whitney...from the 80s...discussing this.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
True! Unfortunately, there's not even any implicit nuance or, y'know, opinion in Whitney's work. Completely empty. No content. Rather unfortunate.
|
Cry to someone who cares.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Have you been reading Adorno? Nah, of course not. Anyway, lemme give some Swedes a call and let them know they shouldn't give Dylan that No Bell yoke 'cuz he's just as manufactured as Whitney, didn'cha know?
|
You're so brave. Thank you for sharing your story with me. You do that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Ah, the crux of the matter. I strongly disagree, especially with regard to people as pointless as Whitney and Mariah. Beyoncé's vocal delivery (expounded on earlier by her Defender of the Beyth) and occasional musical experimentation, feminist politics, racial politics, and negotiation of American capitalist ideals and markets make her far more valuable to the culture at large than Whitney and Mariah ever were.
|
It makes her more valuable to THIS era's culture, not culture as a whole.
You are equating with what you feel is more artistic and more socially aware with what's more significant. They're not the same thing. Try again.
She is not a more influential musical artist than Whitney by any means, nor has she exceeded her in power or status. Whitney was able to translate her immense musical success into immense Hollywood and television success. Beyonce not so much.
The difference between Beyonce and Whitney is that Beyonce sings about female and black empowerment. Whitney didn't. There were already a lot of artists singing for our culture at that time and they were doing a very fine job. No major black artist on the level of Beyonce but Beyonce is doing that today, thus she will always have spotlight when singing about such things. That doesn't make her more valuable than Whitney or Mariah. That simply makes her position in HER generation very special.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
You kinda sound like a first-wave feminist dismissing second-wave feminism. "Pankhurst got us the vote, what the shite is Beauvoir doing?!" As Woolf might have put it: Whitney's got black women the room and five hundred a year, Beyoncé's getting black women into the academy.
|
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Whitney didn't get black woman a room. She got them an entire estate. Beyonce is simply building her own house on said estate.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit
Hang on, when was this an issue? Like, ever? Diana Ross, Ronnie Bennett, Donna Summer, Grace Jones, Minnie Riperton all sang pop in very, uh, "pop" voices and were just fine. What happened Whitney was professional jealousy. She rose above it. Good on her.
|
DIANA ROSS AND DONNA SUMMER. Are you SERIOUS? Both of them got PLENTY of criticism for the same thing. Diana was very much vilified for being "too white". LOL never mind. Thank you for confirming what I said. You know NOTHING about these other ladies, never mind Whitney.
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
|
Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
Lena Horne was the black style icon of all style icons. She had success in music, film and television before Diana. There's no denying that Diana cultivated the "diva" image, but she was not the first stylish black icon. Lena played an important role during the Civil Rights movement. She fought against racism and broke down barriers before and for Diana Ross. You can't say she was the first for things that should not be attributed to her. And you mentioned The Beatles, and Whitney broke their record for 7 consecutive # 1's. Proving that Whitney took it further.
What does any of this have to do with entertainment? Whitney's brand included executive producing for television and film, something she was doing at the same age as Beyoncé is now. And Whitney's brand actually benefitted other artists to succeed, as previously mentioned. Whitney hand picking Brandy for Cinderella made Brandy the first black Cinderella and gave her her own doll. What did a perfume and IVYPARK do for the industry? What did it do besides fatten Beyoncé's pockets? Artists did not have perfumes back then so I don't even know why that was mentioned.
Again, acclaim is not just about album reviews. Whitney is known as The Voice and a standard for singing. No album reviews can take the place of that.
|
I said that The Supremes were the first black crossover artists. And by that I mean completely crossing over and sustaining it.I did NOT say that Lena was not important or that she did not crossover in some ways.
And your dismissal of something like clothing brands or perfumes because artists didn't have them is like dismissing Whitney for executive producing because people like Diana weren't doing that prior. We're talking about expanding on what has been done and taking it further, no? That's what this is.
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
That's not subversive. Black women have been singing about sex since the blues.
|
So? Etta was still subversive even if black women had been singing about sex. So long as sex was not a topic okay by society for them to sing, it's subversive.
The logic you're using would also imply that it's not important that Whitney broke into films because black women had been doing that for decades. It still is a major, important achievement.
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 11,808
|
Lord hammercy
why do y'all make these threads...
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
|
.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
As for artistic and brand perspective...
I'm not saying Beyoncé took Whitney's singing style and furthered it. At all. They are completely different. I'm saying that both women are artists and brands and in those sectors Beyoncé has taken it further.
|
In what way though?
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Artistically, Beyoncé has upped the ante in a major way. She's coloured outside the lines so that the blueprint of a pop album is now thought of a bit differently. That goes from the musical content to the supporting videos as well as the release and marketing strategy. Lemonade is a perfect example. It's not just an amazing album but a complete work of art from the musical story to the film itself. It's furthered by her personal voice throughout.
|
Nothing on Lemonade is ground breaking musically or thematically. Beyoncé is not the first artist to use the music video medium to tell a story. In fact, there are other artists who did it much better. [/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Brand-wise, it's very hard to say something like Beyoncé being the first black person to have a perfume (or one of the first if I'm mistaken) opened the doors for other black women because perhaps if even without her input someone like Rihanna would have done it anyway. But it's also hard to say that it was solely Whitney's influence that got Beyoncé roles in Austin Powers, The Pink Panther or Dreamgirls, because as we well know there have been a long history of black singers as actresses (Diana, Lena, Eartha Kitt, Diahann Carroll, Vanessa Williams, Dorothy Dandridge, etc.). So yes, if Whitney made it so Beyoncé could act, then Beyoncé is making it so that newer young female artists can expand their brands outward not just to perfume and merchandise but in actually setting up entire sub-brands (IVYPARK) with major worldwide corporations that are not partnerships but actual 50/50 relationships, or being at the artistic centre of your world where you are not only involved in writing, but you are producing and co-directing everything as well from the music to the videos to the tour to everything.
|
But see, here is the difference. We have already seen the impact Whitney's branding has had on the industry. You are merely assuming Beyoncé will have impact on the industry through her branding. IVYPARK could easily flop a year from now. Take Tidal. That was an ambitious move that everyone thought would revolutionize the industry, and it's clearly done no such thing. You all are prematurely predicting the success of Beyoncé. Whitney's success and impact is already visible in that realm. Which is why Beyoncé has not surpassed or matched anything. And again, Beyoncé is not the first hands-on artist. There are a slew of artists who are and have been much more hands-on than she has been.
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 9,619
|
As a celebrity maybe, as a musician no way.
|
|
|
Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
|
Ah, Chimier. Try not to be so proudly unintellectual, it's no good for the wellbeing of the board!
I'll PM you a reading list when I have the time. We'll start with some basic cultural theory, might get to the musical end of things before March.
|
|
|
|
|