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Decision '08: Barack Obama wins the election
ATRL Moderator
Member Since: 12/21/2002
Posts: 20,569
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Quote:
Originally posted by TC
Tell me, what good does that do? Tell me! I can't believe you people! Obviously, no one read my post. This is the most childish, inaccurate, and insane excuse for "political discussion" I've seen in a long time. What a disgrace. Indecision 2008 indeed.
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Welcome to ATRL.
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ATRL Administrator
Member Since: 5/2/2000
Posts: 2,844
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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnald.
Welcome to ATRL.
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That's pretty much all that needs to be said, isn't it? ATRL
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Banned
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 7,024
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its true :P ^
poem to all atrlers:
roses are red
violets are not
compared to hilary clinton
you're all pretty hot!
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 9/25/2001
Posts: 7,563
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Quote:
Originally posted by TC
I support Barack Obama in this primary process. Why? I've felt inspired by Obama in ways that Clinton simply can't match. I hear his truly motivational and inspirational speeches and I feel something very different than I do with Clinton or that I did with Kerry or Gore for that matter. I believe Obama is fighting to turn this country around with all his might and represents a shift to a completely different kind of leadership that we so desperately need. He makes me and millions of others believe "Yes, We Can," and that inspiration and hope is absolutely essential in bringing out enough people to win this election.
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I think regardless of who the democrat is this time around, they are going to win the election. Anyone can have great speeches written for them and be a good orator. Interestingly, in debates, he's NOT such a good speaker, because he doesn't get to rehearse and he can't think on his feet. It just shows a lack of real command for the issues to me. But when it comes down to it, I'm not looking for someone to inspire. I think we're all very inspired to get rid of Bush and the conservatives right now. I'm looking for someone who can fix the issues that we have going on, and I think Hillary is much better positioned to do so.
Quote:
Originally posted by TC
The fact that Obama was not a senator in 2002 does not discredit his very valid opinions that the war in Iraq was wrong from the start. He may not have been a senator at the time, but the rest of us citizens had access to more than enough information to determine that the war was completely unnecessary. Hell, I could've told you that, and I was in high school at the time. It's unfortunate that Clinton and nearly every other senator at the time did not come to the same conclusion. They were blinded by false information while much of the rest of the world saw right through it. To call Obama inexperienced is also misleading. Now, Obama certainly has less experience in Washington than Clinton, but to imply he does not know "how things work" is preposterous. It's very clear to me he knows "how things work" and knows what's necessary to bring about positive change. I do not believe a lifelong history in Washington is a prerequisite for achieving success with his policies.
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It makes a lot of difference to me. There is a lot of information that is not shared with the American public, and a lot of intelligence that is specifically made available to the Senate Armed Forces Committee. Hillary happened to be on that committee. Her vote was not to start a war, and she has said this numerous times. The information presented to the senators and especially to that committee clearly said something that was strong enough to sway them all. They're not stupid, Hillary's a Yale graduate and listening to her debate the other candidates has proven her intelligence quite well to me. Hindsight is 20/20, and yeah, I didn't want to go into Iraq back then either, but I was a 17 year old high school student. I didn't realize back then that there was more to the picture than I had thought. Sure, in hindsight, it wasn't the best idea to authorize the war, and it sucks for Hillary to be on the wrong side of history, but she was making the decision she thought was best for our nation AT THE TIME, and she couldn't have foreseen what Bush turned the votes from the senate into.
Quote:
Originally posted by TC
Words that Obama uses a lot - change, hope - aren't just buzzwords that he throws around. I have read over Obama's comprehensive blueprint for change a number of times - available at http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama...tForChange.pdf - and I have seen he lays out very specific and detailed plans for the change he talks about bringing. I have read his plans for increasing the minimum wage and increasing grants for college and I fully support them. He is promising investments in climate change research and the reduction of carbon emissions that go unmatched by the other candidates. His plan for tax credits for hard-working middle class people and the simplification of IRS forms is especially welcome. His clear and consistent message about Iraq is always encouraging; never confusing.
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What it comes across to me as when I watch him talk is that he likes to throw out those buzz words because they get a rise out of the mindless. Sure, there are people like you who have real reasons for supporting him, but I feel like a lot of his supporters are just like "yeah! Change is a good word! I like that! I'll vote for Obama!" I think that part of the problem is that he never talks about these ACTUAL plans on TV, so I didn't even realize they exist. He's too busy hyping things up. I've heard Hillary detail her plans in the debates and forums that they appear in together, but not him. I have to say that all of their plans are quite similar, regardless. When it comes down to the issues, they tend to be almost identical. The health care plan is one of the most important things to me, and I really like her idea of mandatory health care. The people who decide not to insure themselves always end up going to the hospital and never paying the bill, racking up tons of medical bills they can't pay. It's an age old story and it hurts the US health care system. Universal healthcare is the direction we need to go in as a nation, and it's much too late as it is. I really think this next senate election and house election will be extremely favorable to democrats again, and that we'll have a very open opportunity to pass a universal health care plan in the next 2 years.
Quote:
Originally posted by TC
I also support Obama because I have seen his ability to bring people together in a way that other candidates have not been able to do. I believe he has a greater abliity to win the general election. Without that crucial win, all of this was for nothing. Recent polls by Time Magazine support these observations, noting that Obama would win 48-41 vs. McCain, while Clinton would be in a tie with McCain 46-46. The Clintons have been especially divisive since January and I think they lost a lot of mainstream support as a result. Meanwhile, Obama has brought together friends, family members, and acquaintances of mine who are liberal, conservative, libertarian, and even some who were completely apathetic about politics. These people who felt completely unrepresented by the political system in the past are now inspired and interested because of Obama. It would be a terrible shame to see us lose the election to McCain because millions of Americans became disillusioned and sat out.
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The polls just recently shifted in that direction...one month ago Obama and Hillary were in the same position. It just shows how fluid those polls are, and SUDDENLY they decided to publicize the first one that Obama does better in. It's so funny how the media loves to spin things for him. I don't think he has a better chance at the general election. Young people might be coming out in bigger numbers than they used to, but percentage wise they're still such a small portion of who's voting. Hillary has shown that she has strong support in Florida, New York, and California, which are states that all have a whole lot of electoral votes available in the general election. We know Florida is especially important thanks to 2000 and 2004. She has a lot more campaigning to do, and I really think that the country would end up electing her over McCain, especially due to how the electoral college works.
Quote:
Originally posted by TC
Note how I said 'us' there - you can't forget we are all in this together for the greater good of our country. Whether Obama or Clinton is the candidate, I will throw my support behind them to get us on the track to a better country and a better world. I believe both Obama and Clinton will work hard to ensure the last 7 horrific years are reversed in any way possible. You should believe that too if you don't already, because it's very clear. Just listen to Obama and try to tell me you believe he would do anything terrible for this country. Either way, we're much better off. But I can't lose sight of the process to getting there, and I believe Obama will be much more able to get us there; much more able to win this one for us. I agree with him more closely on more issues as well, as I outlined earlier. So it's a clear choice for me.
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I think they both WANT to do good things for the country, of course. I'm worried that he isn't going to have the experience going in. Hillary spent 8 years in the white house, as the (2nd) most active first lady in history, and now she has spent 8 years in the senate as well. 16 years in the executive and legislative branches of the NATIONAL government - not the Illinois state senate - means a lot more knowledge of the process, a lot more pull, and a lot more ability to get things done. I think he could be a great president...perhaps after serving as her VP. But honestly otherwise, I really don't think he's ready and I don't want to take chances on someone who has not proven himself yet. That's the reason I get so angry sometimes, because he doesn't have enough of a track record at this point to put my trust behind him. He can talk big, that's great, but can he deliver?
Quote:
Originally posted by TC
Regardless, when it comes to what they will actually do as president, Obama and Clinton have far more similarities than differences. I wouldn't mind a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton ticket, actually, to stress those similarities and bring together an otherwise divided Democratic party. I'm willing to come together and support whoever it is, and you should be, too. We can't lose this and suffer 4 to 8 more years of failed, backwards, ridiculous, outrageous policy just because people became disillusioned by the primary process. I'm worried that this division will lead the Republicans to another victory, and we can't have that. If there's anything we have to remember, it's that we have to stand together, beyond our negotiable differences, to overcome and defeat the Republicans once and for all. The facts are on our side - Obama AND Clinton will work to bring about positive change we need more than anything else. We disagree on who will have the better ability to do that; who will do that better; but we must agree they will both bring about positive change. It's time to lose the division and stand together.
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I agree, but at the current time it's between the two of them, and I want to fight for what's best for this country and I believe so strongly in my heart that it's Hillary.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 9/25/2001
Posts: 7,563
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oh PS I'm not responding for a while because I'm off to see the Spice Girls!!!
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Member Since: 8/6/2003
Posts: 50,977
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Nick
And TC, I just lost a LOT of respect for you after you quoted Mazen's dumb 'reasons' as something worth being pointed. Also congrats for cutting half of what I said, trying to give it a whole different meaning. Disappointing, to say the least.
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Member Since: 3/19/2003
Posts: 3,226
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Anyways, so far...
Hillary Clinton
Pledged: 915
Superdelegates: 224
Total: 1,139
Barack Obama
Pledged: 971
Superdelegates: 135
Total: 1,106
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ATRL Administrator
Member Since: 8/27/2006
Posts: 5,277
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So it takes an Administrator to come in and bring some maturity to this discussion(Or Attempt To)? Thats very sad but hey, whatever works. Like I've been saying for a while now, whoever you like is your choice and you should stick to it if you really believe in them. At the same time you should not discredit anyone's opposing choice based on your lack of research about them & based on the fact that you just don't like them.
In the news today
Clinton replaces campaign manager
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton has replaced her campaign manager with a longtime adviser, Maggie Williams, the campaign announced Sunday. Williams served as Clinton's chief of staff when the New York senator was first lady. Ex-campaign chief Patti Solis Doyle has been reassigned to a senior adviser's job, the Clinton's campaign announced in a memo to its staff. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/...ign/index.html
Barack expected to win Maine caucuses
At the time of writing this its unlikely that things will go in Hillary's way for the Maine caucuses. Barack Obama is currently leading his opponent by a lead of 57% - 42%.
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ATRL Moderator
Member Since: 12/21/2002
Posts: 20,569
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It could be anybody, Ralph. 4-5 at the Geronimo Convention, and Sleazy Slanders hasn't seen a single whim of cheese-slice since the initial receptions.
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Member Since: 8/9/2004
Posts: 21,889
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony Kerty
TC, I just lost a LOT of respect for you after you quoted Mazen's dumb 'reasons' as something worth being pointed. Also congrats for cutting half of what I said, trying to give it a whole different meaning. Disappointing, to say the least.
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STFU you piece of brazilian monkey ****.
Anyway, congrats to OBAMA for winning a Grammy for Best Spoken Word Album over the other nominees, including Hillary Clinton. A true leader!
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ATRL Administrator
Member Since: 5/2/2000
Posts: 2,844
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nick
I agree, but at the current time it's between the two of them, and I want to fight for what's best for this country and I believe so strongly in my heart that it's Hillary.
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Nick, thank you for bringing some thoughtful and reasoned points to this debate instead of the idiocy we've seen posted by some other members. I do believe Obama will be able to 'deliver', and in any case, I hope everyone will be able to rally behind our candidate whether it's Clinton or Obama.
Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony Kerty
And TC, I just lost a LOT of respect for you after you quoted Mazen's dumb 'reasons' as something worth being pointed.
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Jesus ****, as if I would do that! Try again. I quoted Mazen's childish and immature points as a reason that all of you needed to "shut up." I obviously disagree with what Mazen said. I also quoted you because it was ridiculous of you to assume that "80% of Obama supporters are demented" based on Mazen's comments. Mazen represented himself terribly, but that says nothing about other Obama supporters. It's very obvious to me that both Clinton and Obama supporters here on ATRL have been acting ridiculous, and I took a clear stand to rise beyond all of that nonsense.
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ATRL Administrator
Member Since: 8/27/2006
Posts: 5,277
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony Kerty
Nick
And TC, I just lost a LOT of respect for you after you quoted Mazen's dumb 'reasons' as something worth being pointed. Also congrats for cutting half of what I said, trying to give it a whole different meaning. Disappointing, to say the least.
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What do you mean by that exactly? The question was Why should we (ATRL members) shut up? Then he went on to quote samples of comments that were immature and filled with ignorance. I think you may have read it differently.
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ATRL Moderator
Member Since: 12/21/2002
Posts: 20,569
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TC, honestly though, what are your odds on Willy Wargoose stealing the shoeshine from Dangerous Daffy's 500+ streak in the Bill O'Norris playoffs?
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ATRL Administrator
Member Since: 5/2/2000
Posts: 2,844
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Quote:
Originally posted by Athens
Whoever you like is your choice and you should stick to it if you really believe in them. At the same time you should not discredit anyone's opposing choice based on your lack of research about them & based on the fact that you just don't like them.
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Athens, I also want to thank you for being reasonable and thoughtful. That's apparently hard to come by here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnald.
TC, honestly though, what are your odds on Willy Wargoose stealing the shoeshine from Dangerous Daffy's 500+ streak in the Bill O'Norris playoffs?
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8 to 1.
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ATRL Moderator
Member Since: 12/21/2002
Posts: 20,569
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Quote:
Originally posted by TC
8 to 1.
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You... dirty dinosaur!
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Member Since: 8/6/2003
Posts: 50,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peepshow
STFU you piece of brazilian monkey ****.
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Sorry, but I'm gonna report you for that. Much too much, Mazen. :-/ That was disrespectful.
Quote:
Originally posted by Peepshow
Anyway, congrats to OBAMA for winning a Grammy for Best Spoken Word Album over the other nominees, including Hillary Clinton. A true leader!
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Oh, really? Congrats. Hillary wasn't nominated though. But you probably already know that. But hey, wasn't he nominated for Best Entertainer? He's most likely winning that as well.
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Member Since: 8/6/2003
Posts: 50,977
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Quote:
Originally posted by TC
Jesus ****, as if I would do that! Try again. I quoted Mazen's childish and immature points as a reason that all of you needed to "shut up." I obviously disagree with what Mazen said. I also quoted you because it was ridiculous of you to assume that "80% of Obama supporters are demented" based on Mazen's comments. Mazen represented himself terribly, but that says nothing about other Obama supporters. It's very obvious to me that both Clinton and Obama supporters here on ATRL have been acting ridiculous, and I took a clear stand to rise beyond all of that nonsense.
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Ok, I get it now. I obviously misunderstood what you wrote, and I'm sorry for that.
About the 80%, I just typed a random number, although it may make sense if we use that YouTube video posted here a couple of days ago and the majority of ATRL Obama supporters as an example, with the exception of you and other 1 or 2 members.
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Member Since: 7/13/2004
Posts: 12,079
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TC never in my post did I say Obama wouldn't be able to be a good president or that he wouldn't end the war..... I like Obama but I think Hillary is better qualified for the job at this point in time
And I'm not someone that needs to shut up in this discussion. First of all I started this tread. Second, I bring many educated points and you can go through past posts and see them for yourself...
I hope no hard feeling TC.
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Member Since: 3/19/2003
Posts: 3,226
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LOL it's funny how TC is making this whole thread so much serious-er tee hee...
but just to clear it up, my first few posts in this thread are obviously not serious. And if you didn't know that, then you must not know Kaos the great.
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Member Since: 6/22/2005
Posts: 6,931
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