|
News: GrExit: "Greece in Auschwitz"
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 7,726
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Opacho
Yes I told you to shut up because you're ultimately blaming everyone else but the culprit for whatever reason. I'm not one of those who wants to see Greeks fail but I'm certainly not going to stand here and listen how it's everyone else's fault either. And that's what your whole argument is based around. My argument was never that they 'TOOK MONEY FROM TAXPAYERS' but that their own actions led them to where they are now. And now they'll have to face consequences. Banks will no longer receive support and they can flail about all they want and it's just! I feel sorry for the people of Greece but not their leaders.
And FYI I didn't come here to debate (nor did I call you stupid but your views and approach) but to voice my own opinion. This is not a political forum, there's no way of approaching a situation like this. I don't have to be respectful toward anyone whose views are skewered by whatever reasons, cause you're clearly not seeing straight. But then again we are on ATRL and straight is a rare sight in these woods.
|
I never stated - in this thread or in the real world - that Greece is blameless in this. Their land deals with a lot of corruption and the money was misspent.
Your whole post is based on nothing. I stated that Greece loaned originally from banks and that it's not their fault that taxpayers are not carrying the debt. This is a FACT.
If you're presenting an argument, then you're debating an issue with someone. It doesn't have to be a political forum for this to occur.
Again, I do not care if you disagree with my views; the truth remains this.
1. Greece loaned from Banks because the EU as an institution did not have a system in place for when one of their own failed. EU banks weren't forced to lend Greece money.
2. Now the EU does have a system to deal with economic and financial issues: the European Stability Mechanism.
3. NOW the taxpayers carry the debt; but the EU accepted this and took over the debt from banks AFTER Greece was already showing that it was going to default
My opinion is: Greece is not blameless, but so are the banks. And so is the EU. The EU didn't even have a system in place to deal with this UNTIL 2012! Don't even get me started on the way the Eurozone fails poor countries when it sets up its monetary and fiscal policies.
----
My bad. I guess I was raised with manners. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
And oh yeah, my bachelor(s) are in Business and Business Economics and International Economics. Obtaining my masters now. You? Since you're calling people stupid and ****. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
|
|
|
Member Since: 3/1/2014
Posts: 2,096
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Qwerty1234
Exactly! Especially when the ECB is more likely to adapt the interest rate in way that benefits Germany and the Benelux countries instead of Portugal, Spain, Italy etc.
The economies of the Eurozone/EU Countries are too different. One monetary/fiscal policy does not fit all.
|
Milton Friedman predicted this in 1997
The Euro monetary unity to political disunity
Quote:
By contrast, Europe’s common market exemplifies a situation that is unfavorable to a common currency. It is composed of separate nations, whose residents speak different languages, have different customs, and have far greater loyalty and attachment to their own country than to the common market or to the idea of "Europe." Despite being a free trade area, goods move less freely than in the United States, and so does capital.
The European Commission based in Brussels, indeed, spends a small fraction of the total spent by governments in the member countries. They, not the European Union’s bureaucracies, are the important political entities. Moreover, regulation of industrial and employment practices is more extensive than in the United States, and differs far more from country to country than from American state to American state. As a result, wages and prices in Europe are more rigid, and labor less mobile. In those circumstances, flexible exchange rates provide an extremely useful adjustment mechanism.
If one country is affected by negative shocks that call for, say, lower wages relative to other countries, that can be achieved by a change in one price, the exchange rate, rather than by requiring changes in thousands on thousands of separate wage rates, or the emigration of labor. The hardships imposed on France by its "franc fort" policy illustrate the cost of a politically inspired determination not to use the exchange rate to adjust to the impact of German unification. Britain’s economic growth after it abandoned the European Exchange Rate Mechanism a few years ago to refloat the pound illustrates the effectiveness of the exchange rate as an adjustment mechanism.
Proponents of the "Euro" often cite the gold standard era from 1879 to 1914 as demonstrating the benefits of a common currency. But the gold standard also had its costs. The period was characterized by declining prices from 1879 to 1896, rising prices thereafter, and sharp fluctuations within each period, especially severe in the 1890s. The standard was viable only because governments were small (spending in the neighborhood of 10 percent of the national income rather than 50 or more percent as now), prices and wages were highly flexible, and the public was willing to tolerate, or had no way to moderate, wide swings in output and employment. Take away the rose-colored glasses and it was hardly a period or a system to emulate.
As of today, a subgroup of the European Union -- perhaps Germany, the Benelux countries, and Austria -- come closer to satisfying the conditions favorable to a common currency than does the EU as a whole. And they currently have the equivalent of a common currency. Austria and the Benelux three have, to all intents and purposes, linked their currencies to the Deutschmark. However, these countries still retain their central banks and hence can break the link at will. Any country that wishes to link to the Dmark more firmly can do so on its own, simply by replacing its central bank with a currency board, as some countries (such as Estonia) outside the EU have done.
|
|
|
|
Banned
Member Since: 9/12/2011
Posts: 9,897
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Qwerty1234
I never stated - in this thread or in the real world - that Greece is blameless in this. Their land deals with a lot of corruption and the money was misspent.
Your whole post is based on nothing. I stated that Greece loaned originally from banks and that it's not their fault that taxpayers are not carrying the debt. This is a FACT.
If you're presenting an argument, then you're debating an issue with someone. It doesn't have to be a political forum for this to occur.
Again, I do not care if you disagree with my views; the truth remains this.
1. Greece loaned from Banks because the EU as an institution did not have a system in place for when one of their own failed. EU banks weren't forced to lend Greece money.
2. Now the EU does have a system to deal with economic and financial issues: the European Stability Mechanism.
3. NOW the taxpayers carry the debt; but the EU accepted this and took over the debt from banks AFTER Greece was already showing that it was going to default
My opinion is: Greece is not blameless, but so are the banks. And so is the EU. The EU didn't even have a system in place to deal with this UNTIL 2012! Don't even get me started on the way the Eurozone fails poor countries when it sets up its monetary and fiscal policies.
----
My bad. I guess I was raised with manners. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
And oh yeah, my bachelor(s) are in Business and Business Economics and International Economics. Obtaining my masters now. You? Since you're calling people stupid and ****. ![:)](http://www.atrl.net/forums/images/smilies/images/smilies/smile.gif)
|
Again, never called you stupid, just the way you're excusing them and not holding them accountable but blaming everyone else first and foremost.. Programming/Game Development/Graphic design. I'm not pursuing my masters as I was 'scouted' and am working for a game company now :c
Anyway, just because you have a degree in that field doesn't mean you're somehow superior or that your opinion is superior. After all, most politicians have the same backgrounds but Republicans and Democrats don't see eye to eye on most accounts. :C But it's clear that only Greeks and Cyprus(sians ![eli's_rhythm](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/eli_zps0932edf9.gif) ) shift blame to EU for their **** ups, go through this thread. Most of us are just mad that they're so delusional and not owning up to anything.
I know all the facts you've presented it's just my personal opinion that Greece is the ground 0 when it comes down to who should be held accountable for their own ****** situation. Several countries have faced a similar situation and pulled themselves through. Greek government is continuously proving how incompetent they are and now they're left to sink until they decide it's time to move on.They'll pull us down a bit too, but their economy is basically non-existent so we should be able to recover if other things align properly. ![@michael.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/micheal_zps45ccf519.gif)
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 7,352
|
You keep going on about how the banks didn't have to loan Greece money, but what would've happened if they didn't? We would've probably had the exact same situation, just a little earlier as far as I can see.
|
|
|
Member Since: 2/2/2014
Posts: 3,375
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Opacho
Again, never called you stupid, just the way you're excusing them and not holding them accountable but blaming everyone else first and foremost.. Programming/Game Development/Graphic design. I'm not pursuing my masters as I was 'scouted' and am working for a game company now :c
Anyway, just because you have a degree in that field doesn't mean you're somehow superior or that your opinion is superior. After all, most politicians have the same backgrounds but Republicans and Democrats don't see eye to eye on most accounts. :C But it's clear that only Greeks and Cyprus(sians ) shift blame to EU for their **** ups, go through this thread. Most of us are just mad that they're so delusional and not owning up to anything.
I know all the facts you've presented it's just my personal opinion that Greece is the ground 0 when it comes down to who should be held accountable for their own ****** situation. Several countries have faced a similar situation and pulled themselves through. Greek government is continuously proving how incompetent they are and now they're left to sink until they decide it's time to move on.They'll pull us down a bit too, but their economy is basically non-existent so we should be able to recover if other things align properly. ![@michael.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/micheal_zps45ccf519.gif)
|
Or that could be happening because we live here and we know who's getting punished for the politicians' wrongdoings. Do you know that in the past 5-6 years, taxes affecting middleclass people have raised by 337% while taxes affecting rich people by 9%?
And the measures asked by the EU this time would once again leave rich people intact (for the most part). Also, the propaganda towards a yes vote this past week was downright ridiculous with networks going as far as against the damn law and getting embargoed by the government, not to mention news people getting laid off left and right.
Also don't come for us all "You chose your politicians!1" because we're a country that has gone through 4 different governments/prime ministers in the past 7 years. We're trying to fix **** up, our politicians aren't.
|
|
|
Banned
Member Since: 9/12/2011
Posts: 9,897
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Giorgoc
Or that could be happening because we live here and we know who's getting punished for the politicians' wrongdoings. Do you know that in the past 5-6 years, taxes affecting middleclass people have raised by 337% while taxes affecting rich people by 9%?
And the measures asked by the EU this time would once again leave rich people intact (for the most part). Also, the propaganda towards a yes vote this past week was downright ridiculous with networks going as far as against the damn law and getting embargoed by the government, not to mention news people getting laid off left and right.
Also don't come for us all "You chose your politicians!1" because we're a country that has gone through 4 different governments/prime ministers in the past 7 years. We're trying to fix **** up, our politicians aren't.
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Opacho
Yes I told you to shut up because you're ultimately blaming everyone else but the culprit for whatever reason. I'm not one of those who wants to see Greeks fail but I'm certainly not going to stand here and listen how it's everyone else's fault either. And that's what your whole argument is based around. My argument was never that they 'TOOK MONEY FROM TAXPAYERS' but that their own actions led them to where they are now. And now they'll have to face consequences. Banks will no longer receive support and they can flail about all they want and it's just! I feel sorry for the people of Greece but not their leaders.
|
My previous post. I'm not trying to blame YOU, the people! You've done as your government led! You're not at fault. Greek's leadership on other hand IS and y'all are facing the consequences.
|
|
|
Member Since: 10/2/2011
Posts: 4,285
|
Honestly learned a lot more about this situation just by reading this thread, on both sides.
The entire thing's a mess. I'm mostly worried about a domino effect that affects Asia and the Americas.
|
|
|
ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/8/2006
Posts: 42,086
|
Quote:
CNNMoney @CNNMoney 53m53 minutes ago
Greece needs bailout of as much as $96 billion, according to document from European officials confirmed by CNN.
|
![Dancehall Queen](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/dancehall_zps88e4c4c6.png)
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 7,352
|
Wasn't it at 53 billion just a few weeks ago?
|
|
|
Member Since: 8/31/2012
Posts: 13,110
|
$96 Billion is not much considering the U.S. took like $1 trillion to bailout. Why can't all the counties in the world just come together to give like a couple hundred million each and call it a day?
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 7,679
|
So whats gonna happen now??
|
|
|
Member Since: 10/1/2008
Posts: 3,322
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucko
|
This is very interesting, thank you for sharing!
Quote:
Originally posted by Espresso
Honestly learned a lot more about this situation just by reading this thread, on both sides.
|
True.
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/1/2013
Posts: 15,264
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Shigo
So whats gonna happen now??
|
If Greece accepts the terms and demands laid down by the EU they will practically lose their sovereignty and if they don't they will go bankrupt and be kicked out of the Euro, but tbh I just think they presented the list so Europeans will think they are being TOO hard and will be more open to less severe measures ![rip](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRLSmilies/rip_zpsec10ede9.gif)
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/1/2013
Posts: 15,264
|
Greece is pissed that the IMF will stay involved and they have to give 50Billion worth of state property to the EU as a warranty, LOL
Their newspapers are disgusting, saying 'Germany destroys Europe again' and 'Greece in Auschwitz' when it's the dann Greeks who don't pay their debts ![rip](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRLSmilies/rip_zpsec10ede9.gif) the only one destroying Europe is Greece, sucking Europe dry like a leech
I pity the Greek population right now, who knew your representation could screw you over as hard as Tsipras has done in the past weeks
|
|
|
Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
|
When I see comparisons to WWII I kind of want Greece to die in its own vomit ![Bibliotheque](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/biblio_zps23dff242.gif)
|
|
|
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 14,321
|
Breaking: Deal unanimously reached.
![Duca](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/ATRL_Smilies_All/atrlers/duca_zps480ab501.gif)
|
|
|
ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/8/2006
Posts: 42,086
|
Quote:
Eurogroup's Dijsselbloem says that 25 billion Euros ill be used to recapitalise Greek banks
|
No GrExit
These are good news, aren't they?
|
|
|
Member Since: 12/15/2009
Posts: 23,385
|
Jay z and Beyonce's #tidal has a run for their economic disaster of 2015 title
|
|
|
Banned
Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 8,388
|
I hope Georgia replaces Greece in the EU.
|
|
|
ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/8/2006
Posts: 42,086
|
Greek bailout program set at 86 billion euros over 3 years
|
|
|
|
|