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News: Forcing gender roles on kids is harmful, study shows.
Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by ReginaPhalange
Is Ange raising her kids genderless?
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Shiloh's genderless. But apparently she requests to be called John so she's already exhibiting trans characteristics. I don't think Angelina's forcing it though. i think she's just allowing her child to express herself/himself however he/she wants to.
There's conflicting reports though. Some media outlets say Angelina's the one driving it...
But that just seems to be ignorant transphobia. If Shiloh wanted to play with girls toys, dress as a girl, play with girl toys and identify as a girl, she would do so.
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 8,690
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
No. They don't I have 5 nephews and I can assure you, they like what they like and my sisters and their husbands let them. There's no pressure. They're not forcing them to like certain things. They're not taught what to like. We're already expecting one of them to be gay because he hates playing rugby and likes playing barbies with his sister. Whereas the other four all choose to play with trucks and superheroes of their own volition. People like what they like. For example, you like Lady Gaga. Is that because society taught you what to like as soon as you were born? No. Because society would most likely teach you the opposite. You gravitated towards her because that's where your natural interests were. You were born that way
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Most parents aren't like your sister though and will actively try to discourage boys form playing with barbies or anything pink. And even if parents aren't doing this the media definitely does. Of course people will like what they want but a lot of them will also feel embarrassed and not openly express they're interests through fear of being ridiculed or shamed.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Because you're gay. Your 5 year old nephew most likely won't be. He can already see that it's a bit different for a boy to like princess films, because he can't identify with that. Is it because, as you said, society is teaching him what to like? No. If it were, you yourself wouldn't like princess films. He likes what he like because he too was born that way
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No. You're just making assumptions when this is my family. ( ) My 5 year old nephew thinks it's weird because my sister and his step father have taught him that. Also being gay has nothing to do with what I like.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 12,199
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
Shiloh's genderless. But apparently she requests to be called John so she's already exhibiting trans characteristics. I don't think Angelina's forcing it though. i think she's just allowing her child to express herself/himself however he/she wants to.
There's conflicting reports though. Some media outlets say Angelina's the one driving it...
But that just seems to be ignorant transphobia. If Shiloh wanted to play with girls toys, dress as a girl, play with girl toys and identify as a girl, she would do so.
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Wow, is that true she wants to be called John? I've got no problem with that, providing it's not Ange driving it. This is the genderless parenting I'm referring to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9028...reotyping.html complete and utter nonsense. You will raise a very troubled individual
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Member Since: 2/16/2010
Posts: 69,775
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Gender norms are overwhelmingly re-inforced, so it'd be incredibly difficult to raise your child without any societal influence towards what they're "supposed to like" because of their gender. Even if you, as a parent, tried to raise your child gender neutral, outside parties would influence them regardless: friends of yours who give your child "boys" or "girls" toys without even thinking about how these items are going to influence your child. Plus, the tv or movies they watch will no doubt generalize what little boys and girls are interested in.
In fact, I would say it's practically impossible to raise a child without society's influence. Ultimately, I feel like the child will make the choice for his/herself what they are interested in; if not earlier in life, than later.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 6,565
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maneater
Most parents aren't like your sister though and will actively try to discourage boys form playing with barbies or anything pink. And even if parents aren't doing this the media definitely does. Of course people will like what they want but a lot of them will also feel embarrassed and not openly express they're interests through fear of being ridiculed or shamed.
No. You're just making assumptions when this is my family. ( ) My 5 year old nephew thinks it's weird because my sister and his step father have taught him that. Also being gay has nothing to do with what I like.
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So you'd still like dick if you weren't gay?
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Member Since: 2/16/2010
Posts: 69,775
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I'm not planning on having children right now, but if I did, gender roles would not really apply in my house. I would expose my children to different types of activities with equal opportunity. I would play catch with both of my kids, and not just the boy. I would let my kids watch and Beauty & the Beast, & not just the girl. From there, I would see what each child gravitates towards in terms on interest, and let them choose from there.
If I had kids, my #1 goal would be for them to be healthy and happy with living life the way they want, doing what they want to do (as long as it's safe and not harmful). I would feel terrible if I held them back because I told them it wasn't right for them to be interested in something.
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 8,690
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jae
So you'd still like dick if you weren't gay?
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Aside from that.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cupid
They don't naturally gravitate toward it though, it's all subliminal or subconscious.
Through cartoons, advertisements, the environment they grow up in, family influences etc.
My nephew used to love Disney and Beauty and The Beast, because his mother loved it too and he was bought up on it.
But if you watch any kids cartoons or shows etc, they all reinforce the stereotypes that boys should play with soldiers and cars and girls should love pink and dolls etc.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because for the most-part, I don't see those cartoons and kids shows imposing stereotypes on to young children because of the gender distinctions we've inherited. I seriously think it's a case of demand influencing supply.
I don't think we tell children which franchises they should like. I think we just put them out there, and whoever they are as an individual is whatever they'll like. Some are really, really masculine, like G.I. Joe. Some are really feminine, like Barbie. Some are completely gender-neutral, like Poke'mon and Rugrats.
I believe I was born gay, so I just naturally gravitated towards the Disney Princesses and Sailor Moon, and I was fortunate enough to grow up in a household that just let me be myself and didn't force any gender role on to me. At the same time, I also loved Small Solders, He-Man and Dragon Ball Z, so I never felt pressured in to liking something masculine or feminine, I just like what a liked. And I think most kids are like that. There are masculine franchises, feminine franchises and gender-neutral franchises. Some boys will love playing soldiers, some girls will love playing princesses, some girls will love playing soldiers, some boys will love playing princesses. So long as they grow up in a household that lets them be themselves, they'll be fine. The issue in this article, in my opinion, is when a parent steps in and says "stop playing with Barbies, those are girls toys, you're a boy." But the fact that Barbies and Soldiers both exist in the marketplace doesn't mean we're being conditioned on what to like. If it did, it would work and none of us would be gay. But just because we can identify gender roles and what's masculine/feminine from a young age doesn't mean we're automatically being forced to follow them. Some kids might feel expected to like certain masculine/feminine things growing up, and I suppose that can be a bit of a societal pressure, but the 'forced' part is more someone saying "no, you can't like Beauty and the Beast, you're a boy" and your nephew is fortunate enough to grow up in a good environment where that isn't the case
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maneater
Most parents aren't like your sister though and will actively try to discourage boys form playing with barbies or anything pink. And even if parents aren't doing this the media definitely does. Of course people will like what they want but a lot of them will also feel embarrassed and not openly express they're interests through fear of being ridiculed or shamed.
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Yeah...and that's exactly what this article is about, which is why I said "the key word here is forcing" because it's when you try and force someone to not like what they naturally like (whether it's barbies or dick) that you have a problem. All I said was, for the most-part, people will naturally gravitate to their natural gender role. Why did I say that? Because it's true. A significant majority of the world is straight. That is just a fact. I know a lot of gay people go on about "10% of people are gay" but there's no data to prove that, and actual estimates suggest it's a lot lower. But even if it were 10% that's still incredibly low, and most straight people as children naturally gravitated towards what boys like and what girls like.
You're right, the media does do this, but again, it seems to come down to a majority-rules consensus and the majority of people are straight. It might not seem that way on ATRL, but they are. You can't blame Disney or Mattel for producing really feminine princess toys and Barbies targeted towards young girls when they know it's commercially viable. It will make them a lot of money with young girls. The same thing for DC and Marvel. A lot of boys love superheroes.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maneater
No. You're just making assumptions when this is my family. ( ) My 5 year old nephew thinks it's weird because my sister and his step father have taught him that. Also being gay has nothing to do with what I like.
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Because gay has nothing to do with what you like? Being gay is what you like: men. And certain interests are gay. Like Lady Gaga, and that's ok.
Maybe it's a difference in opinion then. I think you naturally like Disney princess and pop stars because you're gay, whereas a little straight boy wouldn't like those things, not because society tells him what he should and shouldn't like, but simply because he just naturally likes superheroes and football. He was just born that way.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 9/3/2012
Posts: 29,405
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jae
So you'd still like dick if you weren't gay?
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 3,830
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I don't get it. Men and women are so different (biologically) that it's normal they like different things. I was never forced to like Barbie dolls and ponies (I'm a girl), I also had toy cars yet I was not interested in them at all. My favorite color is pink not because society told me to like it, but because I think it's cute My household was always very open minded, my parents let me be myself and yet I am very girly and never gravitated towards boyish things.
I also have a two year old cousin, who cannot even talk yet and I've seen her tuck in baby dolls to sleep. I've never seen a boy do that. It's obviously an instinct they are born with. But if the child wants to play with toys that are not normally associated with the other gender they should be allowed to but I think those parents who raise "genderless" children to let them decide what gender they are later on in life should have CPS called on them.
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Member Since: 8/9/2012
Posts: 18,572
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cupid
They don't naturally gravitate toward it though, it's all subliminal or subconscious.
Through cartoons, advertisements, the environment they grow up in, family influences etc.
My nephew used to love Disney and Beauty and The Beast, because his mother loved it too and he was bought up on it.
But if you watch any kids cartoons or shows etc, they all reinforce the stereotypes that boys should play with soldiers and cars and girls should love pink and dolls etc.
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I agree. I think it's obvious boys aren't born wanting to play with trucks or watch wrestling or whatever. It's definitely all what/who influences them at such a young age.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 37,384
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
The key word here is "forcing" though.
Most boys will naturally gravitate towards trucks and football. And most girls will gravitate towards Barbies, fairies and Disney Princesses. What's harmful is when boys would rather play with Disney Princesses and girls would rather play with trucks, but we force them not to, because of gender roles.
But for the most-part, an overwhelming majority of people slip in to their natural gender roles anyway, regardless of societal pressure.
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exactly!!!
No one should be forced to be "feminine" or "masculine" though because those definitions vary by culture and are completely constructed by humans. Theres no nature involved there
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 3,400
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihinvention
The key word here is "forcing" though.
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Basically. It doesn't mean baiting to what they want is harmful, but if a boy wants to play with a barbie and you tell him it's "girly" and you need to be a "man" and play with "boy toys" ( ) then that's when you cross the line and it becomes harmful to their psyche and views.
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Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 1,426
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Some of the people in here get it. Makes optimistic for future generations.
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Member Since: 8/3/2010
Posts: 71,871
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Member Since: 9/8/2009
Posts: 6,473
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
You're simplifying an enormously complex mechanism. The child is born and guess what's at the baby shower? Blue, cis-male clothing, baby toys with "boy colors", "boy baby toys". Societal pressures start before that baby even has a chance to get out of the womb. I don't think you understand just how overarching societal pressures are. They are mostly subliminal and not outward as you'd like to think
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The TRUEST tea thus far.
There is also one massive factor that certain people in this thread are overlooking: CULTURE.
Masculinity and femininity are largely subjective and the expectations thereof vary greatly from culture to culture. Some things that are perceived as inherently feminine or masculine to westerners are not so in cultures where people aren't socialized to view them that way. Personally I feel like Western culture gender-izes way too many things unnecessarily.
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Member Since: 5/15/2010
Posts: 8,120
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Harmful? I'm gay but I never liked barbie dolls or any feminine stuff, I always liked playing violent or adventure video games and I guess Pokémon is neutral or close to masculine franchise? idk my sister and my nieces never liked it (Pokémon) instead my cousins and my nephews are/were big fans of it.
If I ever have sons I wouldn't like them to play with barbie or watching princess movies even if he's born that way I'd like him to be masculine but that's just me so I guess it's more of a societal issue.
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Member Since: 4/3/2014
Posts: 19,477
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
You're simplifying an enormously complex mechanism. The child is born and guess what's at the baby shower? Blue, cis-male clothing, baby toys with "boy colors", "boy baby toys". Societal pressures start before that baby even has a chance to get out of the womb. I don't think you understand just how overarching societal pressures are. They are mostly subliminal and not outward as you'd like to think
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But that has nothing to do with forcing it on children. Yes, it's a widely held view that pink is for girls and blue is for boys, but when you really think about it, there's no such thing as boy colours and girl colours. They're just different pigments on a colour scale that we traditionally associate with different things. But the fact that those associations exist isn't detrimental to children. Certain colours were always going to be linked to certain genders. In a parallel universe, pink is for boys and blue is for girls. What's detrimental to children is when a girl wants to wear something blue and her parents say no, or a boy wears a pink shirt and people call him a "fa**ot." And that's only detrimental/hurtful if he's actually gay. I know plenty of straight guys who wear pink shirts and if someone called them gay, they'd just laugh it off and probably throw a gay-slur right back.
We're never going to get rid of the fact that some things are deemed masculine and some are deemed feminine. That's always going to be there. And we just had a straight girl come in to this thread say "I naturally gravitated towards barbies, ponies and the colour pink...I didn't feel any societal pressure." And I think most straight people would agree. They didn't feel any pressure. They just naturally gravitated to feminine things if they were a girl and masculine things if they were a boy. Or maybe if they were a girl, they were a tomboy and loved sports, or if they were a boy, they were a bit metrosexual and liked clothes and playing with dolls/figurines.
It's only other gay people that seem to have a problem with this, like "oh my life was so hard because I always wanted a Barbie but was too embarrassed to ask for one at Christmas time." But even by that admission, gays are admitting that they naturally gravitated to things that were more feminine in their childhood, which marks signs that they first started noticing they were gay.
I honestly think it's both. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's not like "gender roles only exist because society tells children what they should and shouldn't like." Nor is it "gender roles only exist because children naturally gravitate towards what's masculine and feminine anyway." It's both. Society does tell boys and girls what is masculine and what is feminine, but for the most-part, they'll naturally gravitate towards what's masculine and what's feminine anyway. Why? Because most people are straight and don't question their sexuality or gender identity during their childhoods. So it doesn't matter if "society tells them" they should play with barbies or trucks, or they're playing with barbies/trucks because it's a decision they made on their own, because at the end of the day, girls are getting the barbies they want, and boys are getting the trucks they want. They don't care if it's society's decision or their own. They've got the toys they want. And that's been my argument from the beginning. That most children will naturally gravitate to their 'normal' gender roles anyway. And that the key word in the article is "forcing" and it's a very small minority who feel like they're being "forced" into one or the other. That doesn't make it ok. But all I said was for the most-part, most children will slip into their natural gender roles anyway.
This seems to be an issue only affecting gay/trans people, because most straight children/teenagers conform to traditional gender roles anyway.
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Member Since: 1/12/2012
Posts: 18,340
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Let them know!
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