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Discussion: Is Islamophobia a real thing?
Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 745
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Islam is a vile religion, so there's nothing wrong with being scared of evil things.
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Member Since: 1/2/2012
Posts: 4,764
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathanspears
I don't see what's so wrong about hating a religion/idea/belief system. I hate all religions and the concept of it.
What IS wrong however, is the discrimination and hatred of innocent Muslims. I think it should be called something different.
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I completely agree with you. I firmly believe that the concept of religion simply shouldn't exist in the 21st century for many reasons, and I don't intend to offend those who practice a religion when I say this because I have nothing against the people themselves, but I'm entitled to my opinion and I have the right to disagree with other people's practices (this includes my own family, love them as people but hate what they believe in).
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Member Since: 2/9/2012
Posts: 10,283
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Quote:
Originally posted by heckinglovato
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So countries were the extremist one is dominant then
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 8,187
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Quote:
Originally posted by skyandground
Islam is a vile religion, so there's nothing wrong with being scared of evil things.
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I agree with this
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Member Since: 3/6/2014
Posts: 13,097
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People should not discriminate against muslims or make generalizations but "Islamophobia!" is mostly just a way for people to silence criticisms of an ideology that has resulted in the deaths of millions of people. Its no different than when the Christian right in America complains about being persecuted because gay people are allowed to get married. Everybody wants to play the victim but in reality, most people are the aggressors.
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Member Since: 7/15/2012
Posts: 30,915
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idontcareaboutyou
I guess I can see your point when a woman wearing a hijab is attacked, for example. But this puts completely aside the fact that you have muslims of all races. Just because the ignorant average western person imagines a muslim as a slightly brown person with a hijab or a turban doesn't mean that's always the case. Having the term 'islamophobia' condones this stereotypical image of the average muslim.
It's not. It's important to remember that Muslims as a group of people who believe in an ideology are not only on the receiving end of prejudice and oppression. They inflict it too.
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The term Islamophobia doesn't suggest they also can't inflect prejudice or be oppressive.
You're also ignoring that these words are meant to help articulate the struggles of people when they're not in a position of power, and are oppressed by those in power. To suggest Islamophobia is not good as a word because there's oppressive Islamist countries ignores that the point of the word is to be used to describe those in cultures that are oppressive to Muslims (ie: Western cultures, not Islamist cultures of the Middle East).
Would you suggest we can't call anti-asian views racist because to do so would suggest Asians can't be oppressive themselves (which we know to be true, as power varies by culture, and Asians in white supremacist countries face racism that they wouldn't face in Asian-majority countries, while many Asian countries have deep-seeded anti-black issues to deal with)?
I'll even give you that the word can be misused by those describing issues abroad when the word's purpose is rooted in articulating the experiences of Muslims in Western culture, of course, but within the West, it's a very useful word to help articulate these people's experiences.
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Member Since: 1/4/2014
Posts: 22,877
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Of course it's real - just what the world needs, white non-Muslim Americans on the internet telling Muslims what their experiences are.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 46,848
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Member Since: 8/30/2011
Posts: 3,378
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yes. we can bash ignorant cultures,ideologies but to go to the extent of dehumanising children and women,that face oppression is sick. Equally it makes us ignore the fact, that ISIL and Al Qaeda were funded by the CIA and equally we fuel and fund Wahhabism by being cool with the Saudi government and no sanctions. We aid cruelty,then dehumanise the victims.
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Member Since: 7/22/2012
Posts: 4,176
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Absolutely.
it's a difference people. yes islam have radicals but don't confuse them to muslims who just wanna live a healthy life with their own belief. these extremists get none support from muslims who actually follows the koran. family friends of mine are open minded and respect that i'm gay and best friend with their girl. it's more about culture then religion for muslims. yes the koran have questionable remarks but the original concept is preaching nothing but love and respect for your neighbor. but after all these attacks I can understand that people put a question on their own safety. but don't put it out on normal people who don't support such cruelty against humans. I am not a religious person but people can choose for me their own fate. these extremists have more a personal problem and use religion as a excuse.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Fear and suspicion of all muslim people is just not right.
Criticism of islamic rhetoric and laws should be taken seriously.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 19,066
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Quote:
Originally posted by rasmushooker
Absolutely.
these extremists get none support from muslims who actually follows the koran.
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This is false. Edrogan the leader of Turkey is an extremist with the support of 50% of the country.
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Member Since: 8/30/2012
Posts: 5,537
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
The term Islamophobia doesn't suggest they also can't inflect prejudice or be oppressive.
You're also ignoring that these words are meant to help articulate the struggles of people when they're not in a position of power, and are oppressed by those in power. To suggest Islamophobia is not good as a word because there's oppressive Islamist countries ignores that the point of the word is to be used to describe those in cultures that are oppressive to Muslims (ie: Western cultures, not Islamist cultures of the Middle East).
Would you suggest we can't call anti-asian views racist because to do so would suggest Asians can't be oppressive themselves (which we know to be true, as power varies by culture, and Asians in white supremacist countries face racism that they wouldn't face in Asian-majority countries, while many Asian countries have deep-seeded anti-black issues to deal with)?
I'll even give you that the word can be misused by those describing issues abroad when the word's purpose is rooted in articulating the experiences of Muslims in Western culture, of course, but within the West, it's a very useful word to help articulate these people's experiences.
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It's a bit different because Asian-Americans don't form a community with Asians across the planet the same way African-Americans don't form a community with Africans across the Atlantic. On the other hand Muslims, regardless of where they are from, believe in an ideology rooted in one single book and form a common community that is even acknowledged in the Quran : the ummah.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 20,050
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Of course it is. At this point who doesn't do a double take or think about what could happen
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Member Since: 7/22/2012
Posts: 4,176
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueTimberwolf
This false. Edrogan the leader of Turkey is an extremist with the support of 50% of the country.
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these countries like Turkey also have terrible culture. which is a big factor till these extremists and their terrible behavior. it's a reason why country like Norway have much more open minded culture between muslims than Marokko and Turkey. and Koran preach love, it's just people who make excuses for their own ignorance. Koran is also one of the newest religion. 10 years ago it was more who supported this nonsense. right now is just a culture shift for them. their children will be better
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idontcareaboutyou
It's a bit different because Asian-Americans don't form a community with Asians across the planet the same way African-Americans don't form a community with Africans across the Atlantic. On the other hand Muslims, regardless of where they are from, believe in an ideology rooted in one single book and form a common community that is even acknowledged in the Quran : the ummah.
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Yet how exactly do these global Muslim communities affect the power dynamics of a country? How is America somehow less Islamophobic because of what you're pointing out?
Would you suggest Anti-Semitism isn't a thing either? There's a global Jewish community and many Jews have transcended into whiteness within America (and on the basis of religion, as opposed to an ethnicity, there are Jews of all races), and Jews are the majority power within countries like Israel, so would antisemitic be a poor word because it erases the ability of Jewish people to be oppressive (like launch genocide against other populations)?
At the end of the day, one of the main uses of "Islamophobia" is to describe experiences within the Western world by Muslims currently living within the Western world, who experience oppression on the basis of being Muslim within the Western world. If people use it outside of its North American popularized/Western meaning, that's on them.
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Member Since: 8/30/2012
Posts: 5,537
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
Yet how exactly do these global Muslim communities affect the power dynamics of a country? How is America somehow less Islamophobic because of what you're pointing out?
Would you suggest Anti-Semitism isn't a thing either? There's a global Jewish community and many Jews have transcended into whiteness within America (and on the basis of religion, as opposed to an ethnicity, there are Jews of all races), and Jews are the majority power within countries like Israel, so would antisemitic be a poor word because it erases the ability of Jewish people to be oppressive (like launch genocide against other populations)?
At the end of the day, one of the main uses of "Islamophobia" is to describe experiences within the Western world by Muslims currently living within the Western world, who experience oppression on the basis of being Muslim within the Western world. If people use it outside of its North American popularized/Western meaning, that's on them.
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It isn't. But those on the receiving end of this "islamophobia" are also members of a global community whose existence is actually acknowledged by the book they claim to follow and which contributes to oppression of minorities in several countries. For Algerians in Europe to complain of islamophobia when they treat black people like **** in their own country is a bit hypocritical. That's all I'm saying. We live in a globalised world nowadays, you cannot just take the European or the North American society and pretend like it exists in a bubble.
Because anti-semitism is rooted in the opposition to jews not because of their beliefs but as a race. Many of the anti-semitic propaganda was linked either to physical aspects (size of their noses) or behavioural aspects (their relationship to money) believed to be jewish characteristics. I would say that this anti-semitism still needs fighting. However, if it's about the stupidity of the Old Testament or how Israël's policies have been disastrous in recent years, that's not anti-semitism.
Quote:
Originally posted by rasmushooker
these countries like Turkey also have terrible culture. which is a big factor till these extremists and their terrible behavior. it's a reason why country like Norway have much more open minded culture between muslims than Marokko and Turkey. and Koran preach love, it's just people who make excuses for their own ignorance. Koran is also one of the newest religion. 10 years ago it was more who supported this nonsense. right now is just a culture shift for them. their children will be better
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Both in the UK and in France, the children are more radical than their parents.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idontcareaboutyou
It isn't. But those on the receiving end of this "islamophobia" are also members of a global community whose existence is actually acknowledged by the book they claim to follow and which contributes to oppression of minorities in several countries. For Algerians in Europe to complain of islamophobia when they treat black people like **** in their own country is a bit hypocritical. That's all I'm saying. We live in a globalised world nowadays, you cannot just take the European or the North American society and pretend like it exists in a bubble.
Because anti-semitism is rooted in the opposition to jews not because of their beliefs but as a race. Many of the anti-semitic propaganda was linked either to physical aspects (size of their noses) or behavioural aspects (their relationship to money) believed to be jewish characteristics. I would say that this anti-semitism still needs fighting. However, if it's about the stupidity of the Old Testament or how Israël's policies have been disastrous in recent years, that's not anti-semitism.
Both in the UK and in France, the children are more radical than their parents.
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You're just conflating systematic prejudices though.
It doesn't matter if certain Muslims are anti-black - it doesn't erase how their experiences may include being oppressed within anti-Muslim cultures. Why are you acting like people can't be oppressive on one axis yet the oppressed on another? You're also ignoring that a huge portion of Muslims around the world are black themselves and face not only anti-black racism but Islamophobia too. By that same logic, it's hypocritical for people who may be Jewish to complain about anti-semitism when ethnic Jews have just as much ability to be anti-black as non-black Muslims.
Again, your 2nd paragraph describes what Islamophobia consists of within places like America. Being Muslim in a post-9/11 America includes many of those things - physical caricatures, stereotypes meant to harm, etc. that are a by-product of a racialization of people's experiences, to where just describing it as "anti-arab racism" lacks the nuance as to why this prejudice exists.
You want to criticize some ideology so badly you're ignoring the very real racialization that leads to harm, even murder of a certain group of people in certain societies, yet you can do just that (criticize Islam) without denying these people's experiences.
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Member Since: 8/30/2012
Posts: 5,537
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Quote:
Originally posted by Communion
You're just conflating systematic prejudices though.
It doesn't matter if certain Muslims are anti-black - it doesn't erase how their experiences may include being oppressed within anti-Muslim cultures. Why are you acting like people can't be oppressive on one axis yet the oppressed on another? You're also ignoring that a huge portion of Muslims around the world are black themselves and face not only anti-black racism but Islamophobia too. By that same logic, it's hypocritical for people who may be Jewish to complain about anti-semitism when ethnic Jews have just as much ability to be anti-black as non-black Muslims.
Again, your 2nd paragraph describes what Islamophobia consists of within places like America. Being Muslim in a post-9/11 America includes many of those things - physical caricatures, stereotypes meant to harm, etc. that are a by-product of a racialization of people's experiences, to where just describing it as "anti-arab racism" lacks the nuance as to why this prejudice exists.
You want to criticize some ideology so badly you're ignoring the very real racialization that leads to harm, even murder of a certain group of people in certain societies, yet you can do just that (criticize Islam) without denying these people's experiences.
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I'm not. I'm saying that when people act oppressive on one side, the degree of empathy you can give them when they are oppressed on the other side is necessarily affected by what is taking place at the other end.
There are black muslims indeed, although I wouldn't say "a huge portion". And they'll face racism more than "islamophobia" precisely because they don't correspond to the stereotypical muslim profile. Even in the Middle East, many people don't believe "a black can be a muslim" ( http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/...sm-from-arabs/).
It's not hypocritical. They have just as much ability. But being black in Israël, the only officially jewish country in the world, is much better than being black in the majority of muslim countries (and perhaps the US too).
I absolutely don't want to deny it. I just wish it would take another name because "islamophobia" mixes ideology with individuals which creates a misplaced ambiguity.
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