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Discussion: Has Beyoncé already surpassed Mariah and Whitney?
Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
In terms of cultural impact, Beyoncé wins, flawless victory.
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Beyoncé is not more culturally important than Mariah or Whitney. Are you not aware of their contributions? Especially Whitney's and the barriers she broke down for black women like Beyoncé to succeed?
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
In terms of acclaim, Beyoncé surpassed both because neither had a song as acclaimed as Crazy in Love or an album as acclaimed as BEYONCÉ.
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What are you basing this off of? Metacritic? A system that didn't come into existence until 1999? By that point, both Mariah and Whitney were well past their primes, artistically and commercially. All of Beyoncé's solo albums have been rated by Metacritic, whereas only Mariah and Whitney's 2000's have been critiqued. Whitney's debut album is very much so acclaimed, which is why it is included in Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums list. Mariah's Daydream album is also acclaimed. Also, I Will Always Love You and is bigger than any Beyoncé song and is considered a vocal standard, along with her cover of the National Anthem.
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
In terms of respect, Beyoncé wins since Mariah & Whitney were NEVER taken seriously. The amount of jokes and shade thrown at Whitney prior to her death... She was a joke to the media and people were constantly shading/dragging her for her antics and calling her a crackhead. As for Mariah, she never got the respect as a legend until extremely recently, but prior to that, she was constantly mocked, ridiculed for little things and not taken seriously either. Not to the extent of Janet, Whitney & Madonna, but the emotional breakdown, 11 years into her career, was HUGE. She was bashed and bashed; something Beyoncé never got.
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Just because Beyoncé has not had a scandal, doesn't mean she's more respected. MJ has had the most scandals of any artist in pop history, and guess what? He is still the most respected pop artist ever and will always be the biggest. Despite her troubles, Whitney is still very much so respected. She is considered The Voice for a reason. In a weird way, her scandals have only contributed to her legend and has given her a similar narrative as pop culture figures of the past who've had similar downfalls. Every famous person will be ridiculed at some point in their careers, including Beyoncé, who has had her fair share of it rather you see it or not.
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
At this current state, Beyoncé doesn't have the impact and influence that I Will Always Love You & Vision of Love will ever have and that's totally okay.
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But didn't you just say they don't have a song as acclaimed as Crazy in Love? I'm confused.
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
In 30-40 years, I think she'll be among the legends and at the same level. I think comparing impact is kinda stupid honestly. At a certain state, everyone is a legend and you can't really say who is more legendary and who is less legendary because it varies in each and every community and person to person.
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In 30-40 years, Beyoncé will most definitely be considered a legend. And Mariah and Whitney will be considered bigger legends.
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Originally posted by Kool_Aid_King
Objectively, Beyoncé will never reach the influence of Mariah & Whitney because of their seniority,
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But you just said in 30-40 years, she will be at their levels? I'm still confused.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
Beyoncé is not more culturally important than Mariah or Whitney. Are you not aware of their contributions? Especially Whitney's and the barriers she broke down for black women like Beyoncé to succeed?
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So do you think that Whitney never surpassed Diana Ross with this same logic?
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Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
What are you basing this off of? Metacritic? A system that didn't come into existence until 1999? By that point, both Mariah and Whitney were well past their primes, artistically and commercially.
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By 1999 Mariah was 9 years into her career.
Whitney was 14 years into her career.
At 9 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing B'Day.
At 14 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing 4.
And again, this shouldn’t be about surpassing, this should be about meeting their legacies. When you get so huge it’s hard to really compare, especially when artists are so different and do such different things with their careers.
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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No...
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 8,482
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
So do you think that Whitney never surpassed Diana Ross with this same logic?
By 1999 Mariah was 9 years into her career.
Whitney was 14 years into her career.
At 9 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing B'Day.
At 14 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing 4.
And again, this shouldn’t be about surpassing, this should be about meeting their legacies. When you get so huge it’s hard to really compare, especially when artists are so different and do such different things with their careers.
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Or any of the other black female singers/performers (Diana, Aretha, Donna, Tina and etc)
Well according to them Bey's career began in 2003 even though she has solo songs without DC dating back to 1999 so 9 years in her career would have been the 4 era and 14 years would be next year.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 21,331
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Still going at it?
I wonder why Beyoncé threads cause so much debate
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Floyd Mayweather
Or any of the other black female singers/performers (Diana, Aretha, Donna, Tina and etc)
Well according to them Bey's career began in 2003 even though she has solo songs without DC dating back to 1999 so 9 years in her career would have been the 4 era and 14 years would be next year.
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It seems by the way you worded it (“according to them”) that you don’t think her career started in 2003 so why are you arguing any differently? Your point doesn’t make sense nor does it even affect it because nine years into her career if we start at 2003 means we still hadn’t even seen the two most acclaimed Beyoncé albums of her career.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 8,482
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
It seems by the way you worded it (“according to them”) that you don’t think her career started in 2003 so why are you arguing any differently? Your point doesn’t make sense nor does it even affect it because nine years into her career if we start at 2003 means we still hadn’t even seen the two most acclaimed Beyoncé albums of her career.
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I'm not arguing against you at all
I know that Bey's career started in 1997 (and they do too) but they've been discrediting her work with DC throughout this thread. I was stating that because I know that they're going to try to negate your argument since you included her time with DC as well.
I don't know the bolded have to do with anything
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Floyd Mayweather
I'm not arguing against you at all
I know that Bey's career started in 1997 (and they do too) but they've been discrediting her work with DC throughout this thread. I was stating that because I know that they're going to try to negate your argument since you included her time with DC as well.
I don't know the bolded have to do with anything
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Oohhhh gotcha
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
So do you think that Whitney never surpassed Diana Ross with this same logic?
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Well, yes. Diana broke down barriers in a much more constricted time. She was the spearhead of the biggest female group in the world, the only group who rivaled the Beatles. And she was a black woman. She managed to carve out Hollywood success. Furthermore, Whitney's breaking down of barriers were simply continuations of what Diana and others had done. However, in the case of Beyonce, she's the only one benefiting from her movements, while also benefiting from the things others before her have done.
What makes Beyonce special is that in her time, she is the only one. Whitney and Diana weren't the only ones in their generations, but the standouts.
That definitely plays into a lot of the "Beyonce>>>>Whitney/Mariah" comments.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
By 1999 Mariah was 9 years into her career.
Whitney was 14 years into her career.
At 9 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing B'Day.
At 14 years into her career Beyoncé was releasing 4.
And again, this shouldn’t be about surpassing, this should be about meeting their legacies. When you get so huge it’s hard to really compare, especially when artists are so different and do such different things with their careers.
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But exactly how and what is Beyonce "meeting"? She's at the top of the world, the biggest star on the planet and yes, very influential in this generation. That doesn't suddenly translate to "meeting Whitney and Mariah's legacies".
It's not about "getting so huge". Aretha Franklin was NEVER as huge as Diana Ross, yet her legacy is just as great. A lot of you are conflating Beyonce's star power with legacy and cultural significance. Does star power come into play? Sure, but at the lowest point.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Well, yes. Diana broke down barriers in a much more constricted time. She was the spearhead of the biggest female group in the world, the only group who rivaled the Beatles. And she was a black woman. She managed to carve out Hollywood success. Furthermore, Whitney's breaking down of barriers were simply continuations of what Diana and others had done. However, in the case of Beyonce, she's the only one benefiting from her movements, while also benefiting from the things others before her have done.
What makes Beyonce special is that in her time, she is the only one. Whitney and Diana weren't the only ones in their generations, but the standouts.
That definitely plays into a lot of the "Beyonce>>>>Whitney/Mariah" comments.
But exactly how and what is Beyonce "meeting"? She's at the top of the world, the biggest star on the planet and yes, very influential in this generation. That doesn't suddenly translate to "meeting Whitney and Mariah's legacies".
It's not about "getting so huge". Aretha Franklin was NEVER as huge as Diana Ross, yet her legacy is just as great. A lot of you are conflating Beyonce's star power with legacy and cultural significance. Does star power come into play? Sure, but at the lowest point.
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Whitney was certainly one of the only ones like her. Aside from Mariah, no one came close. The same goes for Beyoncé.
I'm not confusing star power with legacy nor significance. Beyoncé's significance has been proven time and time again. From university courses on her to defining the vocal style of her generation in pop and r&b, she is hugely impactful. That doesn't even consider her strategic moves and the way she has been holding the reigns of her own career for the past 3 eras. I don't even really remember mentioning star power though.
The legacy Beyoncé is meeting in regards to Mariah and Whitney is to be a singular powerhouse, a respected artist, vocalist, voice of the generation. For Beyoncé that means more than just the literal sense of the words. Her stance on feminism and black pride has sent ripples throughout culture.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Whitney was certainly one of the only ones like her. Aside from Mariah, no one came close. The same goes for Beyoncé.
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"One of the only" is not "the only". You've basically just rehashed what I've said. With Beyonce, ain't no "aside from" in this generation.
If we make a comparison of all the black female artists throughout the ages, then yes, Whitney would be the "only one", or rather, as Oprah put it, "not like any of the others". She bridged the old and the new, benefited from those before, but still was making a way for those after, had both old Hollywood and MTV generation appeal, was able to translate her music success into film and television, and did this all on being The Voice, her singular vocal talent.
But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about where singers are placed in regards to each other. Whitney was always grouped with Mariah, Celine, Toni etc. With Beyonce, she stands on her own.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
I'm not confusing star power with legacy nor significance. Beyoncé's significance has been proven time and time again. From university courses on her to defining the vocal style of her generation in pop and r&b, she is hugely impactful. That doesn't even consider her strategic moves and the way she has been holding the reigns of her own career for the past 3 eras. I don't even really remember mentioning star power though.
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You said "when you get so huge it’s hard to really compare". When an artist is described as being huge, which factors come into play? Star power and popularity, right? If Beyonce didn't have the star power she does, would you be describing her as "huge"? I doubt it. Being huge has nothing to do with legacy. Joni Mitchell was never a huge, major, superstar artist, but she's one of the most important artists of all time.
And those university courses are not just down to Beyonce's greatness, but are there due to precedences already being set. A black female singer being a focus in academia isn't a new thing. There have been courses on black female singers since forever, whether on one or many. With Beyonce, it's not just down to her artistry, but coupled with the fact that she is very much aligned with feminism, there's another defined layer there, as opposed to someone like Aretha, who wasn't necessarily a self-proclaimed feminist, but had feminist undertones in her music. Thus, because Beyonce intertwines her feminism with her talent and artistry, there are two angles to study her from. And with the kind of influence she has in today's generation, she should be a focus of academia. This does not suddenly mean she's reached Whitney or Mariah's level of influence or that her cultural significance and legacy is just as great.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
The legacy Beyoncé is meeting in regards to Mariah and Whitney is to be a singular powerhouse, a respected artist, vocalist, voice of the generation. For Beyoncé that means more than just the literal sense of the words. Her stance on feminism and black pride has sent ripples throughout culture.
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That is not a legacy. That is what she is/known for. A legacy is something left behind which others benefit from. Example: Whitney's legacy is her singing influence via her pop-gospel singing style, her musical influence via her ballads and uptempos. Her significance lies in how she shifted the musical paradigm with her music, her success as a black female artist in three major formats of entertainment, and how she set precedence for black artists, female vocalists, pop superstars and R&B singers. The overlap in the legacy and significance lies in her setting precedence and breaking down barriers.
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Member Since: 2/16/2012
Posts: 6,442
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
Beyoncé is not more culturally important than Mariah or Whitney. Are you not aware of their contributions? Especially Whitney's and the barriers she broke down for black women like Beyoncé to succeed?
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What exactly were Whitney's contributions? There were plenty of black women before her bringing big voices and gospel to pop (Aretha, most significantly), enjoying massive commercial success (Diana, Tina), and that were far more subversive/challenging/innovative artists (Bessie, Etta, Nina, Grace, Donna)...
I understand that Whitney was the biggest of them all, hence the "barrier-breaking", but when her music was so painfully beige and essentially apolitical - and her image so pampered and conventional - not to mention the fact that she was entirely manufactured... what else is there to value?
And why does the "barrier-breaking" preclude Beyoncé from consideration as being more culturally significant? Barbey d'Aurevilly paved the way for Proust...
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In a weird way, her scandals have only contributed to her legend and has given her a similar narrative as pop culture figures of the past who've had similar downfalls.
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I wouldn't play up this part of Whitney's legacy. Not sure if "farting on a reality TV show with husband Bobby Brown" is being romanticised á la Kurt Cobain or something... more along the lines of Rick James...
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
"One of the only" is not "the only". You've basically just rehashed what I've said. With Beyonce, ain't no "aside from" in this generation.
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Okay this is semantics.
So who are these other artists who were on Whitney’s level?
Celine Dion? Toni Braxton? Mary J Blige?
Just as they exist in relation to Whitney, so do others in Beyoncé’s generation: Rihanna, Adele, Alicia Keys…
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
You said "when you get so huge it’s hard to really compare". Being huge has nothing to do with legacy. Joni Mitchell was never a huge, major, superstar artist, but she's one of the most important artists of all time.
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I didn’t mean huge as in star power, I mean huge culturally (but of course this also considers celebrity and notoriety). Joni Mitchell is hugely important but she is not on Whitney/Mariah’s level of cultural dominance.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
And those university courses are not just down to Beyonce's greatness, but are there due to precedences already being set. A black female singer being a focus in academia isn't a new thing. There have been courses on black female singers since forever, whether on one or many. With Beyonce, it's not just down to her artistry, but coupled with the fact that she is very much aligned with feminism, there's another defined layer there, as opposed to someone like Aretha, who wasn't necessarily a self-proclaimed feminist, but had feminist undertones in her music. Thus, because Beyonce intertwines her feminism with her talent and artistry, there are two angles to study her from. And with the kind of influence she has in today's generation, she should be a focus of academia. This does not suddenly mean she's reached Whitney or Mariah's level of influence or that her cultural significance and legacy is just as great.
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You seem to think that just because people have talked about black female singers in academia before that it’s not impressive or massive that an entire course is created centred around one? Especially for one who is intrinsically a popstar? You keep going back to “ya but Beyoncé didn’t accomplish this without the help of her predecessors” and neither did Mariah and Whitney. I’m not understanding the use of that point if it’s going to negate Beyoncé’s accomplishments but not the other two's.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
That is not a legacy. That is what she is/known for. A legacy is something left behind which others benefit from. Example: Whitney's legacy is her singing influence via her pop-gospel singing style, her musical influence via her ballads and uptempos. Her significance lies in how she shifted the musical paradigm with her music, her success as a black female artist in three major formats of entertainment, and how she set precedence for black artists, female vocalists, pop superstars and R&B singers. The overlap in the legacy and significance lies in her setting precedence and breaking down barriers.
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This is getting a bit tiresome to have to repeat but here is Beyoncé’s legacy:
Beyoncé’s legacy is in her singing influence via her rap-singing style which has permeated through R&B and pop music. The staccato style is imitated from the highest ranks of pop (Rihanna, Britney, Jennifer) and down to the new comers as well (Little Mix, Fifth Harmony, etc.). It’s nearing 20 years now that this style has been introduced to pop music and it’s still present. She’s also an aspirational goal, the perfect popstar personified (singing, dancing, charisma, talent, showmanship, professionalism all coming together to make her a constant reference point for new and current performers).
As a black female artist taking a vocal political stance on the issues of race in America in 2016 (a time where we’re facing a renewed focus on racial issues that had been disregarded for a long time), she’s opened the doors in pop music for others to follow and in doing so has sparked thousands of debates online and in real life about these issues, inspiring people to take part and educating those that were not aware. Her feminist stance has already paved the way for others to follow. The word itself was considered dirty for some and you saw artists like Taylor and Gaga DENY they were feminists because of the stigma of it. Beyoncé proudly claimed herself as one and now both Taylor and Gaga call themselves feminists. Her legacy is defined both in talent as well as message, as she is one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent faces of female empowerment of the entire generation.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,591
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
This is getting a bit tiresome to have to repeat but here is Beyoncé’s legacy:
Beyoncé’s legacy is in her singing influence via her rap-singing style which has permeated through R&B and pop music.The staccato style is imitated from the highest ranks of pop (Rihanna, Britney, Jennifer) and down to the new comers as well (Little Mix, Fifth Harmony, etc.). She’s also an aspirational goal, the perfect popstar personified (singing, dancing, charisma, talent, showmanship, professionalism all coming together to make her a constant reference point for new and current performers).
As a black female artist taking a vocal political stance on the issues of race in America, she’s opened the doors in pop music for others to follow and in doing so has sparked thousands of debates online and in real life about these issues, inspiring people to take part and educating those that were not aware. Her feminist stance has already paved the way for others to follow. The word itself was considered dirty for some and you saw artists like Taylor and Gaga DENY they were feminists because of the stigma of it. Beyoncé proudly claimed herself as one and now both Taylor and Gaga call themselves feminists. Her legacy is defined both in talent as well as message, as she is one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent faces of female empowerment of the entire generation.
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Wasn't Mariah doing that on butterfly?
And janet was talking about race and social issues like poverty with Rhythm nation.
Madonna has also experimented with feminism in her music too.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 9,438
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Beyonce is like 5 times more acclaimed and respected than both of them.
Beyonce is 10x more powerful as a brand than them.
She also has more cultural impact.
I mean Whitney has a very influential voice, but Beyonce as an artist has been way more culturally relevant and influential.
Idk why is this so hard to get.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by AALIYAH DANA
Wasn't Mariah doing that on butterfly?
And janet was talking about race and social issues like poverty with Rhythm nation.
Madonna has also experimented with feminism in her music too.
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Was she? Can you point to tracks where this is the case? I don't remember it being so, nor is it generally credited as starting that trend.
Janet talked about race, yes, so did Billie Holliday. I'm talking about what's going on today.
I also never said no artist had been feminist in her music though. Madonna having done so doesn't negate that Beyoncé's discography is predominately female-empowerment and her use of the word feminist has changed the view of it.
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Member Since: 3/5/2011
Posts: 13,543
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Of course not. But I believe that she already made a lane for herself and clearly no one (who is putting music out right now) is doing what she's doing. not even in the same caliber.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
This is getting a bit tiresome to have to repeat but here is Beyoncé’s legacy:
Beyoncé’s legacy is in her singing influence via her rap-singing style which has permeated through R&B and pop music. The staccato style is imitated from the highest ranks of pop (Rihanna, Britney, Jennifer) and down to the new comers as well (Little Mix, Fifth Harmony, etc.). It’s nearing 20 years now that this style has been introduced to pop music and it’s still present.
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Yes. This is a legacy.
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Originally posted by swissman
She’s also an aspirational goal, the perfect popstar personified (singing, dancing, charisma, talent, showmanship, professionalism all coming together to make her a constant reference point for new and current performers).
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This isn't. This is just you talking. "Aspirational goal".
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
As a black female artist taking a vocal political stance on the issues of race in America in 2016 (a time where we’re facing a renewed focus on racial issues that had been disregarded for a long time), she’s opened the doors in pop music for others to follow and in doing so has sparked thousands of debates online and in real life about these issues, inspiring people to take part and educating those that were not aware. Her feminist stance has already paved the way for others to follow. The word itself was considered dirty for some and you saw artists like Taylor and Gaga DENY they were feminists because of the stigma of it. Beyoncé proudly claimed herself as one and now both Taylor and Gaga call themselves feminists. Her legacy is defined both in talent as well as message, as she is one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent faces of female empowerment of the entire generation.
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This makes her significant. This isn't her legacy. Especially seeing as how we aren't even close to the outcome.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
This isn't. This is just you talking. "Aspirational goal".
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If Beyoncé's huge talent for performing is not part of her legacy, if it is not part of what will be carried on to next generations then neither is Whitney's success in three major formats of entertainment, that too would be merely aspirational.
The goal part was just the introduction to how it's part of her legacy. Just as MJ's legacy is his amazing performing abilities too, so are Beyoncé's. You can see her style in everyone from Fifth Harmony to Rihanna to Ariana Grande to Jennifer Lopez.
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Originally posted by Chimier
This makes her significant. This isn't her legacy. Especially seeing as how we aren't even close to the outcome.
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If a legacy is something you give to people following behind you, then how is Beyoncé redefining feminist in the mainstream not part of her legacy?
There are actual interviews where Gaga and Taylor (to name just a few big examples) says they are not feminists. And now they would never say that. The same goes for so many people around the world.
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