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Discussion: Atheists & Agnostics Hangout Thread.
Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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I really need to understand the logic that religion brought about law and order in the world. As though one needs religion to know taking a life or stealing is wrong. I think religion reinforced fear of consequences and shame and the fear of shame itself but reason prevails over religion for humans I believe and religion did create more lawlessness at some points so its such a failed logic.
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Member Since: 5/10/2012
Posts: 10,996
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
I really need to understand the logic that religion brought about law and order in the world. As though one needs religion to know taking a life or stealing is wrong. I think religion reinforced fear of consequences and shame and the fear of shame itself but reason prevails over religion for humans I believe and religion did create more lawlessness at some points so its such a failed logic.
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I think this idea is based on the fact that religion is a key foundation for most complex societies and also its influence on behavior.
While those are both true, religion and morality are not synonymous. Morality does not inherently depend on religion, although that is the automatic assumption because of said reason.
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecstasy
I'm not. Poor you
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by lonnie
I really need to understand the logic that religion brought about law and order in the world. As though one needs religion to know taking a life or stealing is wrong. I think religion reinforced fear of consequences and shame and the fear of shame itself but reason prevails over religion for humans I believe and religion did create more lawlessness at some points so its such a failed logic.
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I agree with your asssssment. I think in many ways, the strongest effect of religion was to institute groupthink so that cultural leaders could effectively sway the population to their will.
Which, as we've seen throughout history, was used for both good and evil. For example, starting Crusades vs eroding American slavery.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by DAP
I think this idea is based on the fact that religion is a key foundation for most complex societies and also its influence on behavior.
While those are both true, religion and morality are not synonymous. Morality does not inherently depend on religion, although that is the automatic assumption because of said reason.
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I agree.
I think also the assumption that morality in itself was brought about by religion, that right and wrong can only be realized through religion when that is obviously false.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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people had basic morals such as not stealing things or killing innocent people way before christianity was invented.
the most cruel killings in human history was made during christianity's authorian peak in Europe, which is ironic considering the so-called morals it supposes to preach
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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In a way, you can kind of see how religion was necessary for forming complex societies by just looking at the US Constitution. Which exhibits some features of religion without all the divine commentary. Though, it does mention that our rights come from "God". Cause if not, they must come from humans and humans can take them away. But coming from "God" no one human has the authority to strip them from us.
If you look at religion in this way, it becomes obvious that its largely a power play. From ancient Hindu tradition that initiated the social caste system with religious leaders at the top, to Egyptian mythology which touted its Pharaohs as chosen or descended from Gods, to the Catholic church which gave divine ordinance to the Pope and his priestmen. Religion is very much about power.
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Member Since: 9/1/2013
Posts: 6,762
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I hate how people accredit "morals" to religion. Some of the worst criminals to have ever existed were theists. The correlation is very small.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
In a way, you can kind of see how religion was necessary for forming complex societies by just looking at the US Constitution. Which exhibits some features of religion without all the divine commentary. Though, it does mention that our rights come from "God". Cause if not, they must come from humans and humans can take them away. But coming from "God" no one human has the authority to strip them from us.
If you look at religion in this way, it becomes obvious that its largely a power play. From ancient Hindu tradition that initiated the social caste system with religious leaders at the top, to Egyptian mythology which touted its Pharaohs as chosen or descended from Gods, to the Catholic church which gave divine ordinance to the Pope and his priestmen. Religion is very much about power.
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This is clearly the above and all of it when thought through, that someone is elevated to power by the mere idea that they have closer ties to a higher power.
For instance, evangelist preachers are literally seen as the mouthpieces of God, and people kind of ignore the massive power these preachers exercise over their congregations worldwide on even fanatic proportions. I don't know whether anyone has seen the video of that South African pastor who commands his congregation that comprises mostly of women (I wonder why women seem to be more drawn to religion than men, maybe it is the submissive rhetoric instilled and enforced in them as young girls in some societies?) to eat grass and they literally run and chow it down 
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
In a way, you can kind of see how religion was necessary for forming complex societies by just looking at the US Constitution. Which exhibits some features of religion without all the divine commentary. Though, it does mention that our rights come from "God". Cause if not, they must come from humans and humans can take them away. But coming from "God" no one human has the authority to strip them from us.
If you look at religion in this way, it becomes obvious that its largely a power play. From ancient Hindu tradition that initiated the social caste system with religious leaders at the top, to Egyptian mythology which touted its Pharaohs as chosen or descended from Gods, to the Catholic church which gave divine ordinance to the Pope and his priestmen. Religion is very much about power.
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I agree.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Unforgiving
I hate how people accredit "morals" to religion. Some of the worst criminals to have ever existed were theists. The correlation is very small.
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Well it's even more weird when you stop to think that a lot of "morality", as we know it in the west, came about to challenge disturbing, widespread, state-sanctioned religious practices.
It's funny tho. When religious text encourages negative moral standards like sexism and homophobia, the passive religionists point to the faulty ways of men and the primitive cultures they formed. But when it comes to the good things, like a lot of the common sense found in the Ten Commandments, it's a justification for why God is just, omniscient, and always perfect.
They only attribute the good things to God and his "word". And push the bad things on humans or "the devil". It's like a massive PR scheme to maintain the integrity of an imaginary character. When in reality, humans can be responsible for both the good and the bad in history.
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Member Since: 8/16/2011
Posts: 19,718
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Along the same vein, I still find it highly fascinating how religious people attempt to explain all the chaos, destruction, and disorder in the world.
Satan the character is so convenient, but I don't think believers realize how his existence and continued "success" at tarnishing Gods creatures really diminishes God's perceived omnipotency.
Is he all powerful or is he not? Oh he is? So he's just cruel and allows extreme pain and suffering to continue? What? It's just a test you say? And those who follow him will reap eternal peace when they die? So then why make it so hard to follow him by not revealing himself in some very obvious way? 
Etc.
And it always ends on "faith": "You just gotta have faith."
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine.
Along the same vein, I still find it highly fascinating how religious people attempt to explain all the chaos, destruction, and disorder in the world.
Satan the character is so convenient, but I don't think believers realize how his existence and continued "success" at tarnishing Gods creatures really diminishes God's perceived omnipotency.
Is he all powerful or is he not? Oh he is? So he's just cruel and allows extreme pain and suffering to continue? What? It's just a test you say? And those who follow him will reap eternal peace when they die? So then why make it so hard to follow him by not revealing himself in some very obvious way?
Etc.
And it always ends on "faith": "You just gotta have faith." |
It really is a mess when you piece together how they see Satan and God tbh.
They'll go from calling him a fallen angel who went against God (which gives off the feel he's below) but then they always are quick to say that Satan is at work over mass tragedy.
And if you question why God didn't stop Satan, it's cause he already washed our sins away or something about him not controlling us cause we all have a plan and a journey. 
My mom even goes as far as to say about stuff she misses out on that happens to be important (not getting an upgrade in job) or if something goes wrong that "It wasn't meant to be" "Everything happens for a reason" "God has a plan" and I'm like no you could have prevented this or you can just find this to suck without trying to excuse it (religious coping method to not feel bad). 
Then turn around and say the world getting worse is a sign of the end? Like... how can they tell if it's just Satan trying to end everything or just God allowing his plan to go on? Is he just letting Satan do whatever then and he knows when Satan is acting up but is like "the plan stays"? 
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Satan is the embodiment of wrong and the ultimate scapegoat. That actions caused by people in power were influenced by the devil or natural calamities serves the same purpose the existence of a powerful dark force and impotence of a supposedly all powerful God creates, in that yes they say one ought to have faith and that God knows the reason why 'He' lets certain things happen yet at the same time these things are works of the devil, in other words, in religion (according to the ones I'm familiar with at least), human suffering and evil ought to have a source, and people need a place to point their fingers towards and what's a more brilliant target than the devil.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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The rampant pedophilia in the Church always makes me laugh when religious people depicts atheist are morals-less individuals. They're pretty bold. 
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 18,038
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizuka
It really is a mess when you piece together how they see Satan and God tbh.
They'll go from calling him a fallen angel who went against God (which gives off the feel he's below) but then they always are quick to say that Satan is at work over mass tragedy.
And if you question why God didn't stop Satan, it's cause he already washed our sins away or something about him not controlling us cause we all have a plan and a journey.
My mom even goes as far as to say about stuff she misses out on that happens to be important (not getting an upgrade in job) or if something goes wrong that "It wasn't meant to be" "Everything happens for a reason" "God has a plan" and I'm like no you could have prevented this or you can just find this to suck without trying to excuse it (religious coping method to not feel bad).
Then turn around and say the world getting worse is a sign of the end? Like... how can they tell if it's just Satan trying to end everything or just God allowing his plan to go on? Is he just letting Satan do whatever then and he knows when Satan is acting up but is like "the plan stays"? |
Right?! Like where is the line which things happen because God wants you to grow or because Satan is messing with you?
Or even most ridiculous is the Job example. First Job wasn't patient and second, why should God let the Devil ruin Job so that He wins a wager against the Devil? Why is their a discussion over Job In the first place and why is the Devil given audience by God? Like what is this farce? An apparent guiltless man made to suffer so that God and the Devil can play a game of "who is right?" Like some atrl members fighting over a popstar 
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Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 3,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
The rampant pedophilia in the Church always makes me laugh when religious people depicts atheist are morals-less individuals. They're pretty bold. |
Excuse you, clearly Satan was recruiting that day and ate their religious moral compass like Eve ate that apple which is why they did it, gosh!
If they come back to God they can be forgiven and moved to another Church, simple fix!
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Quote:
Originally posted by FBF
The rampant pedophilia in the Church always makes me laugh when religious people depicts atheist are morals-less individuals. They're pretty bold. |
"but.. but.. but.... atheists stomp on babies, are promiscuous and have sex with animals and rape children!111" oh wait, that would be ISIS killing babies, hillbillies f****** their farm animals and priests raping children.. yikes 
Every time I hear a religious person say atheist do this bad thing or that, I cringe from all of the irony 
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,921
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Satan is our true savior, God is a criminal and a terrorist while Satan wanted to give humans knowledge and better lives, yet God punished him and said who ever worships Satan, he'll end up in hell with him. Satan is the good guy, God is a terrorist!
Spread the word  #IStandWithSatan #LuciferIsMyGod
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen
"but.. but.. but.... atheists stomp on babies, are promiscuous and have sex with animals and rape children!111" oh wait, that would be ISIS killing babies, hillbillies f****** their farm animals and priests raping children.. yikes
Every time I hear a religious person say atheist do this bad thing or that, I cringe from all of the irony |
Tbh Muslims are not as bold as catholics on morals. They come for atheist when it comes to women, because the **** shaming culture is real and they kind of have a little window there. But when it comes to everything else, they'll say atheist are inferior but not that we are morals less, they know can't given what their religion preach
Also, I was studying and I came across this :
Ijtihad is an Islamic legal term referring to independent reasoning or the thorough exertion of a jurist's mental faculty in finding a solution to a legal question.
According to classical Sunni theory, ijtihad requires expertise in the Arabic language, theology, revealed texts, and principles of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh), and is not employed where authentic and authoritative texts (Qur'an and ahadith) are considered unambiguous with regard to the question, or where there is an existing scholarly consensus (ijma).
By the beginning of the 10th century, development of Sunni jurisprudence prompted leading Sunni jurists to state that the main legal questions had been addressed and the scope of ijtihad was gradually restricted.
Welp.
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