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Discussion: Is the BTW era losing momentum?
Member Since: 3/13/2011
Posts: 4,742
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrPeanut
I'm not disagreeing that a lot of BTW's sales have been based off momentum from the previous two eras, but you're trying to have it both ways just like any biased stan of Gaga's would be if they were inconsistent in their view of TF/TFM.
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You are aware that you are arguing an unimportant technicality? I couldn't care less if you grouped them together or if you took them separately. There is still a decline of overall success in any medium you compare in regards to Gaga. The fact of the matter is that there is a decline across the board around the Gaga name/franchise. If you don't want to talk album sales we can talk single sales, if you don't want to talk single sales we can talk radio figures, if you don't want to talk radio figures we can talk chart placements and so on and so forth. Her entire era is disappointing on multiple fronts compared to TF(M) one and it's becoming harder and harder to deny this bigger picture. And yet there were posters on this very site who said BTW would sell 30 million,that the era would last three years, BTW would be her defining album and other platitudes just four months ago.
Now we are here.
Regardless the writing is on the wall and it wouldn't surprise me at all if during Gaga's next era she experiences less success then she has then even now considering it seems that she has disappointed the public in the material she released and it's much easier for the public to cool on a public figure and leave them then it is to regain them. I think it's very possible that the the reverse algorithmic career trajectory for most pop starts careers takes full effect with her now that she is falling back to earth.
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What some of her stans think doesn't change the reality of what TF and TFM would have sold on their own,
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You can't argue that TF(M) reinvigorated sales for TF. TF had sold around 4 million prior to the re-release/EP and as a result of the EP sales now stand around the 14 million bracket. That a huge increase (+10 million). Regardless she likely won't see either of those figures (14 million or 10 million) from a single disc ever again. If Gaga can pull out a hit single that resonates I don't think it would be that out of line to say that she would sell GGGB numbers at the end of this project. She is reportedly still in good standing and has sold 5 million.
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Member Since: 4/16/2007
Posts: 30,963
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Member Since: 5/27/2010
Posts: 37,025
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
You are aware that you are arguing an unimportant technicality?
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You are aware that I never disagreed with your other points about momentum/singles/airplay? But, as usual, you're trying your hardest to obfuscate the only point I did raise.
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Originally posted by Monroe
I couldn't care less if you grouped them together or if you took them separately.
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But you do one or the other when it's most convenient for you, the exact same thing you criticize some Gaga stans for doing.
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Originally posted by Monroe
There is still a decline of overall success in any medium you compare in regards to Gaga. The fact of the matter is that there is a decline across the board around the Gaga name/franchise. If you don't want to talk album sales we can talk single sales, if you don't want to talk single sales we can talk radio figures, if you don't want to talk radio figures we can talk chart placements and so on and so forth.
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I never said otherwise to any of this, and in fact said I agreed with your other points in my original response. The sole point of contention was the percentage you used as a drop off in album sales (which wasn't even correct, because 70% assumed that BTW would just stop selling today). Meaningless technicality or not (and I would say not, because there's a significant different in the trajectory of a star's career if their sales dropped "70%" from album-to-album vs. being on par with previous efforts, even if driven by previous momentum), that was the ONLY thing I disagreed with, so what's your beef and why are you wasting your text?
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Member Since: 3/13/2011
Posts: 4,742
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrPeanut
what's your beef and why are you wasting your text?
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Why are your metaphorically breaking my balls, heckling me over a percentage instead of seeing the bigger picture and main point of my post? You're just nitpicking. The fact that the sales statistic in question is used from her own stan base just further aggregates the meaninglessness of your argument. Until her fans stop referring to the album/ep as a single unit the stat holds weight.
More over I never said Gaga would continue to lose 70% of her sales continuously with each of her releases.
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Member Since: 6/23/2011
Posts: 785
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patri
The hype preceeding this album release was immense. So immense that you kind of suspected right off the bat that it wasn't going to live up to it. At least I did. Nevertheless, the built-up hype created the perfect springboard to launch the album into pop music's stratosphere, but...
I have the impression that this entire era has been a bit... desperate. I find myself grasping at straws to justify this album, or finding a part in each song that gives me an excuse to like the song at all. But to be honest, I think half of the tracks are an abomination that should have seen nothing but the bottom of Fernando's MacBook Pro trash can.
MTN, I really don't get the hype. At all. It has a messy production and no flow, and to be quite frank she sounds like a dying cat in it. I don't understand why stans insist this can be the saving single of the album, I'd change radio stations.
Hair, the lyrics are too adolescent to appeal to a big, varied audience and it is by no extent of the imagination a club song. The only demographic it could possibly appeal to is the teen one in which, I think, she is already sufficiently cemented.
As for when this era lost momentum, I think it started with the release of BTW the single. The Madonna comparisons were fatal imo. The fact that EXPRESS YOURSELF trended on the day it released to radio made me cringe and that's all I heard anyone talk about for weeks.  Add the leak and rush-release of Judas, a touchy and risky single in terms of content and religious connotation, around Easter to boot, along with that choppy and desperate video. Yeah.
The latest part of the era, TEOG and Y&I...a negligible improvement at best. TEOG is a great song, but its release was desperate. Released as a promo single that accidentally skyrocketed. I know there was no other choice but to grasp onto that success, but it just seems desperate to do so after the indisputable flop that was Judas. I would have done the same thing, but still, it taints the single imo. The video killed the song, I've yet to watch it from beginning to end. Y&I was a horrible follow-up to TEOG but a good single choice overall. The cross-over appeal is invaluable, I'm seeing people all over FB raving about the song, people I would have never expected. The video was awesome too.
Basically, if I had to attribute the state of this era to anything, I'd have to attribute it bad marketing. In order to have sustainable success you have to choose a target market and cater to its needs, not create something and hope people will flock to it. She's got the whole thing backwards. JD + PF cemented her in the dance/pop genre. She did it and she did it well. This whole change of pace turned everyone off. Don't get me wrong, she's a good artist and she can enjoy modest success in other genres. but she's forgotten what it is that she does well.
My recommendation for this era? HML. That song has an effect on everyone that hears it. Dark, sexy, dangerous, perfect. After that a short tour to cash in on the success she's had from TF+TFM in Latin America&Asia followed by a ****ing break and a new album. If she comes back strong, people will look back on this era as an experimental one and write it off as a mediocre artistic endeavor.
That's how I see it. |
This was a fantastic post. I agree with a lot of it.
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Member Since: 8/21/2011
Posts: 2,353
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patri
The hype preceeding this album release was immense. So immense that you kind of suspected right off the bat that it wasn't going to live up to it. At least I did. Nevertheless, the built-up hype created the perfect springboard to launch the album into pop music's stratosphere, but...
I have the impression that this entire era has been a bit... desperate. I find myself grasping at straws to justify this album, or finding a part in each song that gives me an excuse to like the song at all. But to be honest, I think half of the tracks are an abomination that should have seen nothing but the bottom of Fernando's MacBook Pro trash can.
MTN, I really don't get the hype. At all. It has a messy production and no flow, and to be quite frank she sounds like a dying cat in it. I don't understand why stans insist this can be the saving single of the album, I'd change radio stations.
Hair, the lyrics are too adolescent to appeal to a big, varied audience and it is by no extent of the imagination a club song. The only demographic it could possibly appeal to is the teen one in which, I think, she is already sufficiently cemented.
As for when this era lost momentum, I think it started with the release of BTW the single. The Madonna comparisons were fatal imo. The fact that EXPRESS YOURSELF trended on the day it released to radio made me cringe and that's all I heard anyone talk about for weeks. Add the leak and rush-release of Judas, a touchy and risky single in terms of content and religious connotation, around Easter to boot, along with that choppy and desperate video. Yeah.
The latest part of the era, TEOG and Y&I...a negligible improvement at best. TEOG is a great song, but its release was desperate. Released as a promo single that accidentally skyrocketed. I know there was no other choice but to grasp onto that success, but it just seems desperate to do so after the indisputable flop that was Judas. I would have done the same thing, but still, it taints the single imo. The video killed the song, I've yet to watch it from beginning to end. Y&I was a horrible follow-up to TEOG but a good single choice overall. The cross-over appeal is invaluable, I'm seeing people all over FB raving about the song, people I would have never expected. The video was awesome too.
Basically, if I had to attribute the state of this era to anything, I'd have to attribute it bad marketing. In order to have sustainable success you have to choose a target market and cater to its needs, not create something and hope people will flock to it. She's got the whole thing backwards. JD + PF cemented her in the dance/pop genre. She did it and she did it well. This whole change of pace turned everyone off. Don't get me wrong, she's a good artist and she can enjoy modest success in other genres. but she's forgotten what it is that she does well.
My recommendation for this era? HML. That song has an effect on everyone that hears it. Dark, sexy, dangerous, perfect. After that a short tour to cash in on the success she's had from TF+TFM in Latin America&Asia followed by a ****ing break and a new album. If she comes back strong, people will look back on this era as an experimental one and write it off as a mediocre artistic endeavor.
That's how I see it. |
You'll regret your words. You'll see, in the end, everything happens for a reason 
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Member Since: 8/21/2011
Posts: 2,353
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
I said before that Gaga was in for a decline. She was on top of the world for too long for it to last forever. BTW the album and the song were going to be hits simply because of the immense good will she gained from TF/TFM era's it could have been complete garbage and it still would have been #1 for weeks because radio was behind her 150% and the general public was interested in seeing what she was coming back with.
I notice that a lot of her fans are clinging to her 5 million albums sold worldwide and I will never begrudge them a solid figure such as that in such a dead sales period (only two albums in the US have sold upward of 700k this year, and only a handful of albums have crossed the 1 million mark globally) but I do want to point out how much she has lost since her last era. TF/TFM sold 14 million albums worldwide compared to her 5 million total of BTW (that's a drop of nearly 70% in sales just from one era to the next), that's not all though each and everyone of her singles from her last era has out performed her most recent single releases from this era in terms of total sales and longevity. While they might not have peaked that much higher even the lesser singles like Love Game, Alejandro and Paprazzi have outsold Gaga's second biggest hit of the era Edge Of Glory.
Even the biggest hit of the era BTW hasn't been able to compete with her biggest hits like JD, PF and BR and likely will never be able to catch up with them in terms of longevity and sales totals. Add with it all of the promo she has had and everything else and I think she isn't doing as well as some may like to believe.
Yes she is doing better the contemporaries like Katy and Rihanna but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she currently finds herself in a similar situation as them down the line. Katy's and Rihanna have sold 4 and 6 million globally respectively that's not that far off Gaga's 5 million mark. Gaga is probably looking at around 7-8 million when all is done perhaps? Outside possibilities of 9 million but not 10 million IMO.
BTW is coasting heavily on her past era and past fans, just like 4 is with IASF and Femme Fatale with Circus. I think the true test of Gaga will come from her third album and I have a feeling we may be in for another stiff drop off because BTW is an inflated era in many ways. I also think it's distressing on how much radio has kind of left her in the wind specifically pop her core format. There was once a time when Gaga could release anything and manage to get a #1 hit (LoveGame anyone?). Now it's like she has to prove herself to be worthy for a top ten. Radio let Judas twist in the wind and You and I is also seemingly getting the shaft after it hit the top 15.
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How can you compare TF, that sold almost 14 albums in 3 years, and TFM, that is at its 6-7 million after a year and a half, with BTW, sold 7.2 albums in nearly 4 months? The album is stil beginning. Overall, the singles have succeeded with no exception. BTW sold 1 million IN FIVE ****ING DAYS!!! and is going for the 4 million mark. Judas may have *flopped* in USA, but globally it was a smashing success. You can't imagine the support it had in Latin America. TEOG, despite the video has sold well enough and it could reach the 3 million soon, and it could accompany BTW to the 4 million mark. Yoü and I is still new, specially since it hasn't been released widely in the world. Still, is having a huge success USA and will smash in the UK. reaching the 1 million mark is very possible. Lady Gaga isn't supposed to smash the top 5 always on Billboard, she's not perfect. And BTW is her first album reaching #1 in it. We could talk even about performances, and she is improving more everyday. And what's more important, regardless the success earned at the end of the era, we know Gaga was sincere, expressing her art and said what she wanted to say. This era was also needed to make those bandwaggon fans jump off. She, for the sake of her artistic legacy, might not care to construct a more solid fanbase even if that means to lose them, as in the end they were never real fans: they were just in the moment, not now when showing now who she really is. 4, and Femme Fatale are more solid and cohesive works if view in perspective with their respective past eras. And I belive Gaga's third album will be even better, even if right now I'm like BTW>>TF/M.
And, to end it, an artist should never let her/his work be manipulated by the viewer. An artist is supposed to give all, but all that is coming from her/himself. The viewer (in this case, listener) either takes it or leaves it.
P.S. Born This Way Era has not ended yet, neither it will end soon.
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Member Since: 2/22/2008
Posts: 46,108
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It did a while ago. I'm ready for the tour. Hope she comes to Venezuela-
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Member Since: 11/26/2008
Posts: 1,788
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she should stop this era and rest.... market was strong and she was already saturated... now im beginning to believe that this album shouldnt have been rushed IMO... it has no momentum now... if her next single wont go top 5, this era must be closed, and die naturally... just wrong and rushed... and shes too serious already... all the latest #1s are light songs or fun dance tracks... the tone of her songs got boring already... needs to reinvent or rest for a year, i love her, but im just being honest, there MIGHT not be another #1 for her in this era.
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Member Since: 6/7/2011
Posts: 22,128
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All these damn 20 paragraph responses.  I'm all for writing thoroughly and extensively, but sometimes you need to take your hands off the keyboard and just press submit. 
As my mum would say, a carefully aimed arrow is sometimes better than a shotgun blast...
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Member Since: 8/29/2011
Posts: 18,282
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
I said before that Gaga was in for a decline. She was on top of the world for too long for it to last forever. BTW the album and the song were going to be hits simply because of the immense good will she gained from TF/TFM era's it could have been complete garbage and it still would have been #1 for weeks because radio was behind her 150% and the general public was interested in seeing what she was coming back with.
I notice that a lot of her fans are clinging to her 5 million albums sold worldwide and I will never begrudge them a solid figure such as that in such a dead sales period (only two albums in the US have sold upward of 700k this year, and only a handful of albums have crossed the 1 million mark globally) but I do want to point out how much she has lost since her last era. TF/TFM sold 14 million albums worldwide compared to her 5 million total of BTW (that's a drop of nearly 70% in sales just from one era to the next), that's not all though each and everyone of her singles from her last era has out performed her most recent single releases from this era in terms of total sales and longevity. While they might not have peaked that much higher even the lesser singles like Love Game, Alejandro and Paprazzi have outsold Gaga's second biggest hit of the era Edge Of Glory.
Even the biggest hit of the era BTW hasn't been able to compete with her biggest hits like JD, PF and BR and likely will never be able to catch up with them in terms of longevity and sales totals. Add with it all of the promo she has had and everything else and I think she isn't doing as well as some may like to believe.
Yes she is doing better the contemporaries like Katy and Rihanna but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she currently finds herself in a similar situation as them down the line. Katy's and Rihanna have sold 4 and 6 million globally respectively that's not that far off Gaga's 5 million mark. Gaga is probably looking at around 7-8 million when all is done perhaps? Outside possibilities of 9 million but not 10 million IMO.
BTW is coasting heavily on her past era and past fans, just like 4 is with IASF and Femme Fatale with Circus. I think the true test of Gaga will come from her third album and I have a feeling we may be in for another stiff drop off because BTW is an inflated era in many ways. I also think it's distressing on how much radio has kind of left her in the wind specifically pop her core format. There was once a time when Gaga could release anything and manage to get a #1 hit (LoveGame anyone?). Now it's like she has to prove herself to be worthy for a top ten. Radio let Judas twist in the wind and You and I is also seemingly getting the shaft after it hit the top 15.
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+1
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Member Since: 4/24/2011
Posts: 7,191
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the meltdown ...
At least BTW outsold TD, Loud, 4, FF and many others except 21.
TF/TFM sold for a total of 6m in 3 years time
BTW sold for a total of 1.8m in half year time.
Flopping ?
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Member Since: 9/10/2011
Posts: 981
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I'm just here reading people saying Gaga is flopping but she **** all over ur faves in less than 4 months. Let's be real, maybe she isn't selling millions of albums in the US but she's one of the very little group of artists that can be considered plenty successfull all over the world.
And let's not forget that all the increase of her success was when she was on tour, sooooooooo let's wait for the soon to be hit worldwide tour. I'm pretty sure she will leave in a really high note when the era is done (at least one more year.)
So let's just sit one second and think what is real and what is perception.
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Member Since: 5/27/2010
Posts: 37,025
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
Why are your metaphorically breaking my balls, heckling me over a percentage instead of seeing the bigger picture and main point of my post? You're just nitpicking. The fact that the sales statistic in question is used from her own stan base just further aggregates the meaninglessness of your argument. Until her fans stop referring to the album/ep as a single unit the stat holds weight.
More over I never said Gaga would continue to lose 70% of her sales continuously with each of her releases.
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You call it nitpicking, but all you had to do was own up to it instead of obfuscating as much as possible. 70% in no way paints an accurate picture of her decline in album sales. My only point, all others are irrelevant to the line of discussion I was raising.
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Member Since: 3/18/2011
Posts: 8,234
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Regardless of the lack of momentum thus far with Born This Way, I'm content with that.
Imagine if Gaga had met expectations with this album.
Ok. Now that we've done that:
Imagine the expectations for her 3rd album.
Nothing she would have done after that would satiate the expectations. If anything, the seemingly lackluster Born This Way could if anything prove to be an advantage.
Imagine that she comes with her 3rd (LP album, for clarification) that is on par with TF or TFM in regards to the general public's reception. It could only put her at new heights.
That's all speculation of course, and isn't really reliable, but that's what I'm hoping will result out of this whole ordeal.
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Member Since: 4/12/2007
Posts: 5,851
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nicole
The album is NOT commercial.  And if she thought it was, she's even more disconnected from reality than I thought. Poor thing. |
Nicole, c'mon now. The content might be considered uncommercial but the overall presentation, definitely not. Everything about the album screams "overproduced" and "big budget." None of the choruses seem genuinely inspired either, they sound as if they were designed with a mass audience in mind.
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Member Since: 4/24/2011
Posts: 7,191
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobbymfw
Nicole, c'mon now. The content might be considered uncommercial but the overall presentation, definitely not. Everything about the album screams "overproduced" and "big budget." None of the choruses seem genuinely inspired either, they sound as if they were designed with a mass audience in mind.
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Did you really listen to all songs ?
You think if Gaga want to be commercial, she will write something like Highway Unicorn, Heavy Metal Lover, Bad Kids, Government Hooker and Bloody Mary ?
Songs designed with mass audience in mind - Just Dance, Telephone, Poker Face. and all Katy's songs. Period.
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Member Since: 4/24/2011
Posts: 7,191
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monroe
Peanut I'm not doing this with you. The fact of the matter is Gaga's fans purposely combine TF/TFM to inflate Gaga's debut record. If they are going to do that then they are going to have to deal with BTW's short comings in comparison to the TF(M) combination. Regardless I think you've missed my point anyway. BTW itself is already an inflated album based on what she did from TF so it selling similarly to TF(M) doesn't mean anything, she established good will and if she is unable to establish good will with the consumers who bought BTW like she did the TF(M) then the bubble will most likely pop with her third era. And if the era has already lost momentum that means that she is in for another decline after BTW regardless.
The reason she is/has accomplished as much as she did with this album is because of momentum from her blockbuster album beforehand. This boat is sailing itself based on TF(M)'s laurels.
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Are you sure ?
The Fame's soundscan figure is at 4.7m, but bear in mind that it includes the deluxe version which is TF+TFM.
TFM (EP version) sold another 1.5m.
So are you just gonna say TF (debut) sold 4.7m while the second album sold 1.5m only ??!
We have no exact figure for TF album alone. If you could get it, and split the sales among TF and TFM, then you can voice out. Before that, keep your mouth over this issue.
You make no sense at all because after all, the EP is a RE-RELEASE for TF. Technically, it is a single album.
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Member Since: 6/15/2011
Posts: 41,028
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The album is commercial 
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Banned
Member Since: 9/12/2011
Posts: 9,897
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It's gonna blow after she releases following songs: Scheiße, Government Hooker, Heavy Metal Lover, Marry The Night, Bloody Mary. To say this album is commercial is just a retarded thing to say. Commercial is what you'd call Teenage dream and Femme Fatale - Bubbly pop. BTW is dark and meaningful.
But even if she's losing momentum now, just you wait till she starts touring. Sales are gonna skyrocket.
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