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Poll: Will you support Hillary Clinton?
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View Poll Results: Will you support Hillary Clinton in the presidential race?
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Yes, I will support the first woman nominee in history, Hillary Rodham Clinton
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115 |
73.25% |
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No, I will not support her. I am voting for Trump/Not voting at all
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42 |
26.75% |
Member Since: 11/28/2011
Posts: 27,495
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
She hasn't lied about Benghazi.  There's eleven straight hours of testimony on Benghazi that makes it crystal clear that the requests for more security were denied at levels below her without her seeing one request. That's it. That's the whole scandal explained. |
??? I'm talking about her lying to the families about the killings being a protest because of a video 
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Member Since: 8/6/2015
Posts: 3,624
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How exciting. I love to see everyone having (mostly) civil arguments 
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSuitBritney
Did I ever say Trump would be better for this country? Of course he wouldn't. In regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I find equally awful. I don't trust him or her when it comes to Palestine, or the country. I refuse to choose the lessor of two evils. So no, a vote against Hillary is not a vote for Trump. It's just not a vote at all. I can still do what feels right in my mind and vote Bernie as a write-in in November
I don't support ANY candidate who doesn't support my country. ANY candidate who is slowly watching my country diminish while civilians are dying and will continue to support it in order to be on the public's "good side" is no leader for me. Sorry. |
I don't agree that it's "just not a vote at all." More importantly though, all of her discussions of Palestine have focused on the presence of Hamas; Hamas is actually designated as a terrorist organization by several countries and was, temporarily, by the EU. It has problematic tactics and positions of its own, and I don't think she has ever attacked the Palestinian people (who I believe are distinct from their government in many ways). She has worked for cease fires and very clearly desires peace between the two countries. I don't want to question your perception as someone who belongs to the country, but from an outsider point of view, it seems quite inaccurate to claim she's just watching Palestinians die for political expedience.
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 118
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSuitBritney
Did I ever say Trump would be better for this country? Of course he wouldn't. In regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I find equally awful. I don't trust him or her when it comes to Palestine, or the country. I refuse to choose the lessor of two evils. So no, a vote against Hillary is not a vote for Trump. It's just not a vote at all. I can still do what feels right in my mind and vote Bernie as a write-in in November
I don't support ANY candidate who doesn't support my country. ANY candidate who is slowly watching my country diminish while civilians are dying and will continue to support it in order to be on the public's "good side" is no leader for me. Sorry.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/10/politi...ed-convention/
Correct, it isn't exactly the same, but has she ever mentioned the amount of dead civilians, including women and children who died from that conflict alone? She fails to ever mention that 95%> of the dead from summer Israel-Palestine conflict were Palestinians. She is making it seem like Palestine is ENTIRELY in the wrong, and doesn't show and grief for those innocent (which majority were innocent) who lost their lives. So as she refuses to talk about that, she continues to talk to Palestine with words like terrorists, Hamas, etc goes to show that she seems them all as the same. |
It doesn't go to show that at all. That's just you making an argument based on supposition. You are PRO Palestine and anti Israel while the US has an ally in Israel but supports a two state solution. What you want is a total and utter Denunciation of Israel and when you don't get it, you use supposition to say they support calling civilians terrorists. The US needs that alliance sis. They need to protect people at home and Israel assists in doing that. They have to be diplomatic when they talk about Israel in public. You're never going to get your Denunciation but that doesn't mean they support terrorism toward Palestine.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Javan
??? I'm talking about her lying to the families about the killings being a protest because of a video |
There's no evidence she said that to them. If she did, it was likely during the time in which we were getting more information about the attack and still believed that the video may have been related.
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Member Since: 10/22/2011
Posts: 2,549
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
I don't consider drone strikes to be mindless murder and I don't call Presidents who authorize military action mindless murderers because I understand that the situation is far more complex despite my disapproval of such military action? |
If it were your nation getting hit by drones, I doubt you'd still hold this view. Innocent people dying are not "collateral damage" and are not "mistakes" that warrant being overlooked so selfishly.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 2,656
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
I don't agree that it's "just not a vote at all." More importantly though, all of her discussions of Palestine have focused on the presence of Hamas; Hamas is actually designated as a terrorist organization by several countries and was, temporarily, by the EU. It has problematic tactics and positions of its own, and I don't think she has ever attacked the Palestinian people (who I believe are distinct from their government in many ways). She has worked for cease fires and very clearly desires peace between the two countries. I don't want to question your perception as someone who belongs to the country, but from an outsider point of view, it seems quite inaccurate to claim she's just watching Palestinians die for political expedience.
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If that's the case, she should talk about it more. From what I, as a Palestinian, and what the majority of the GP will get from her speeches, debates, etc on the issue, she makes it seem that Palestine is wrong fully while Israeli is handling the situation to the best of their abilities and in the correct manner.
Which is why Bernie's stance on the issue is what led for me to throw my support towards him. He's more open minded and would work towards a full, FAIR solution without taking Palestine "Authority" off the map fully.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by FOCK
If it were your nation getting hit my drones, I doubt you'd still hold this view. Innocent people dying are not "collateral damage" and are not "mistakes" that warrant being overlooked so selfishly.
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And I didn't call them that so please don't act as though I have no regard for the innocent lives lost in military strikes.
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Member Since: 11/28/2011
Posts: 27,495
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
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They couldn't pinpoint a motive for the family lying 
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 118
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Quote:
Originally posted by FOCK
If it were your nation getting hit my drones, I doubt you'd still hold this view. Innocent people dying are not "collateral damage" and are not "mistakes" that warrant being overlooked so selfishly.
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The goal is never innocent civillians and always key military targets.
Though, Trump has no problems using the term "collateral damage" and targeting civillians.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSuitBritney
If that's the case, she should talk about it more. From what I, as a Palestinian, and what the majority of the GP will get from her speeches, debates, etc on the issue, she makes it seem that Palestine is wrong fully while Israeli is handling the situation to the best of their abilities and in the correct manner.
Which is why Bernie's stance on the issue is what led for me to throw my support towards him. He's more open minded and would work towards a full, FAIR solution without taking Palestine "Authority" off the map fully.
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I'm just confused as to where you're seeing that from her when her actual work supports a two-state solution, just perhaps without Hamas in particular.
She and everyone else in the elections obviously support Israel to a degree as they are a diplomatic ally of the US, but I don't get the sense that she supports them at the complete expense of Palestinians. Perhaps at the expense of their current government, but a lot of things have been brought into question about that government.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 2,656
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThePopPrince
It doesn't go to show that at all. That's just you making an argument based on supposition. You are PRO Palestine and anti Israel while the US has an ally in Israel but supports a two state solution. What you want is a total and utter Denunciation of Israel and when you don't get it, you use supposition to say they support calling civilians terrorists. The US needs that alliance sis. They need to protect people at home and Israel assists in doing that. They have to be diplomatic when they talk about Israel in public. You're never going to get your Denunciation but that doesn't mean they support terrorism toward Palestine.
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Look at my last post. I said full, FAIR solution to the issue. I fully support Israel being a country and having land, but what they are doing is wrong (Referring to how they are securing their land and killing thousands of innocent people. The whole issue with HOW they have their land and constantly taking more is a whole different issue) and it's going to keep mindlessly going on if Clinton or Trump are elected. Even if it took votes away from him, I'm glad Bernie took a different approach to how he supports a two-state solution. He's real. He doesn't say what he says because he wants to be liked by everyone. He's not wishy washy as hell.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 2,656
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retro
I'm just confused as to where you're seeing that from her when her actual work supports a two-state solution, just perhaps without Hamas in particular.
She and everyone else in the elections obviously support Israel to a degree as they are a diplomatic ally of the US, but I don't get the sense that she supports them at the complete expense of Palestinians. Perhaps at the expense of their current government, but a lot of things have been brought into question about that government.
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You do know Hamas is just a group of freedom fighters who want Israel to stop taking their land, right? They want Israel occupation of out Gaza and the West Bank, which is understandable and I support that, and THEM. But NOT how they are handling the situation. And definitely NOT how Israel is handling the situation. Everyone makes it seem like Hamas has loads of weapons of mass destruction, when in fact their weapons and offensive systems are jack **** compared to Israel and the Iron Dome. Literally in the middle of the conflict, while Palestinians are running from missiles, Israelis are taking lawn chairs up to hills and watching the destruction in Gaza. Look at the amount of deaths and destruction done to Gaza that summer. Now look at the same in Israel. I understand they need to defend themselves, but to do SO much destruction against a country that's already on it's last limb YEAR after YEAR without going "hmm, maybe there's another way to handle this / take down Hamas without constantly killing children" is very frightening.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
And here is a third choice. Will we keep working toward a negotiated peace or lose forever the goal of two states for two peoples? Despite many setbacks, I remain convinced that peace with security is possible and that it is the only way to guarantee Israel’s long-term survival as a strong Jewish and democratic state.
It may be difficult to imagine progress in this current climate when many Israelis doubt that a willing and capable partner for peace even exists. But inaction cannot be an option. Israelis deserve a secure homeland for the Jewish people. Palestinians should be able to govern themselves in their own state, in peace and dignity. And only a negotiated two-state agreement can survive those outcomes.
If we look at the broader regional context, converging interests between Israel and key Arab states could make it possible to promote progress on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Israelis and Palestinians could contribute toward greater cooperation between Israel and Arabs.
I know how hard all of this is. I remember what it took just to convene Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas for the three sessions of direct face-to-face talks in 2010 that I presided over. But Israelis and Palestinians cannot give up on the hope of peace. That will only make it harder later.
All of us need to look for opportunities to create the conditions for progress, including by taking positive actions that can rebuild trust — like the recent constructive meetings between the Israeli and Palestinian finance ministers aiming to help bolster the Palestinian economy, or the daily on-the-ground security cooperation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
But at the same time, all of us must condemn actions that set back the cause of peace. Terrorism should never be encouraged or celebrated, and children should not be taught to hate in schools. That poisons the future.
Everyone has to do their part by avoiding damaging actions, including with respect to settlements. Now, America has an important role to play in supporting peace efforts. And as president, I would continue the pursuit of direct negotiations. And let me be clear — I would vigorously oppose any attempt by outside parties to impose a solution, including by the U.N. Security Council.
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http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ad-one-line-p/
Her speech comes through a lens of pro-Israelism, but that's because it was given to the biggest pro-Israel group in the US. Her intentions and sentiments seem clear to me here, and they don't seem negative.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 1,627
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Yes.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 4,446
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without a shred of an ounce of a doubt. I would back a tree before I back Donald Trump.
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ATRL Senior Member
Member Since: 3/22/2012
Posts: 53,769
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSuitBritney
You do know Hamas is just a group of freedom fighters who want Israel to stop taking their land, right? They want Israel occupation of out Gaza and the West Bank, which is understandable and I support that, and THEM. But NOT how they are handling the situation. And definitely NOT how Israel is handling the situation. Everyone makes it seem like Hamas has loads of weapons of mass destruction, when in fact their weapons and offensive systems are jack **** compared to Israel and the Iron Dome. Literally in the middle of the conflict, while Palestinians are running from missiles, Israelis are taking lawn chairs up to chills and watching the destruction in Gaza. Look at the amount of deaths and destruction done to Gaza that summer. Now look at the same in Israel. I understand they need to defend themselves, but to do SO much destruction against a country that's already on it's last limb YEAR after YEAR without going "hmm, maybe there's another way to handle this / take down Hamas without constantly killing children" is very frightening.
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There are a lot of perspectives that are more critical of both Israel and Hamas than you are. Characterizing Hamas as "just a group of freedom fighters" seems contrary to a lot of the perspectives out there. I'm not saying Israel isn't massively at fault as well, and maybe moreso, but that criticisms of Hamas are for the most part considered accurate and reasonable.
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Member Since: 8/6/2015
Posts: 3,624
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Great responses you guys! Very pleased with the poll! Y'all better get out and vote!
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 118
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSuitBritney
Look at my last post. I said full, FAIR solution to the issue. I fully support Israel being a country and having land, but what they are doing is wrong (Referring to how they are securing their land and killing thousands of innocent people. The whole issue with HOW they have their land and constantly taking more is a whole different issue) and it's going to keep mindlessly going on if Clinton or Trump are elected. Even if it took votes away from him, I'm glad Bernie took a different approach to how he supports a two-state solution. He's real. He doesn't say what he says because he wants to be liked by everyone. He's not wishy washy as hell.
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First of all, a sanders administration would jeopardise the alliance between the US and Israel. It's the closest ally they have in the Middle east and is essential in rooting out terrorism. As I explained to you earlier, we cannot risk that alliance. You know what, sometimes it's great to talk "real" but on some occasions you need to use finesse and diplomacy when you speak in public.
Your suggestion that Clinton is wishy washy as hell is simply not true. I like clinton and like millions of other people around the world change my mind when i gather new information. I would rather a president have the moral fortitude to say "you know what, i was wrong about that, i learned something new and changed my mind" that's more REAL than robotically repeating the same agenda over and over and over again. I was a president that takes new info in, uses it and acts with an open mind.
On that though maybe you can clear a few Sanders things up:
Does he still believe lack of sexual gratification causes cancer or did he wishy washy change his mind?
Does he still think the age of consent should be lowered or has he wishy washy changed his mind?
Does he still think child ****ography is not worthy of heavy police pursuit or did he wishy washy change his mind?
Does he still think women fantasize about being sexually assaulted or did he wishy washy change his mind?
Is sanders still “clearly anti-capitalistic,” or did he wishy washy change his mind?
Does he still think communist countries are "culturally superior" or did he wishy washy change his mind?
At least when Clinton changes her mind she tells everyone she has and why. The above examples are a scary reminder of why this man should never ever be president and thank goodness he's not going to be.
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