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News: New Charlie Hebdo Cover- shows Prophet Muhammad holding sign
Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 473
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Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
Imagine if everyone published whatever they wanted. They'd be no order.
We have moral philosophy for a reason. There is clearly a distinction between whats right and wrong and offending people and mocking them nationally is not the right thing to do.
We all know every action has a reaction and when the action is offensive what do u expect the reaction to be?
Miss me with this freedom of speech ********. When one of their editors insulted Sarkozy's son and paid a price? where were the freedom of speech advocates?
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"Imagine if everyone published whatever they wanted" ..... you mean as in the internet? Because that's essentially what you're referring too, and yes, their still remains order.
The reaction cannot be controlled, but you can't deny someone their rights because you're scared of a reaction that may be to come. That my friend, is much scarier than people publishing what they want because it would lead to whomevers voices are the loudest having tyranny within society.
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Originally posted by Iman
islamophobia isnt a "buzzword." its ****ing real, as evidenced by the increasing attacks on mosques. there have been threads insult, disrespect, and label all muslims as extremists. also, they are many people outside of this forum who do so as well, so lets not try and limit this issue to this thread only.
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If you reread my comment, I made it clear YOU were using it as a buzzword to further a flaccid argument.
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Member Since: 8/1/2012
Posts: 8,763
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMan
But you do choose your religion. It's like choosing to believe in a political ideology. It's all subjective. Just because it closely tied to you, does not give it a free pass in criticism.
We (as a society) criticize bad ideas all the time whether they be political, economic theories, ethics, etc., so yes, we should be able to criticize the basis of Islam because it is an idea. Doing the opposite would be doing a disservice to the progression of human kind. Do you know how many religions came before modern religions? Thousands. How did those come out of favour, due to criticism and rationality of that time. Islam shouldn't be exempt from that process.
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Except that I havent chosen it. I was baptized as an infant and brought up in a country full of religious traditions.
Coincidentally, I study classical archaeology (and my studies include also ancient religions and philosophies), so I know very well how important was the transition to rational and critical thinking for development of modern society.
And yet the religion is still so deeply rooted in me that even when I stopped practising it years ago, I still feel associated to it to such extent that some insensitive comments about it can touch me. I just cant fully separate myself from it even when I sometimes try to. See, I had no choice, it will always be a part of who I am because it shaped me in such an extent as a kid, and I do think Im not the only one.
As I have stated, its all right to criticize things within the religion, but respectfully, because its not the same as criticizing someones choice of clothes or economic theories, its much more personal and to most people its just a part of who they are in the same way as race and sexuality, they dont see it as something they can choose or easily abandon. And those who want to criticize it should understand this aspect (and power) of religions.
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Member Since: 8/23/2011
Posts: 52,519
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Quote:
Originally posted by TikiMiss
Religion is a MAN made construct just like pancakes, toilets, and political parties.
While racial and sexual lines are man made, the color of ones skin and the preferences one has in the bedroom are natural and God given.
The fact you compare these
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What makes you think this is a valid argument ?
Billions believe it is indeed god-given, and they have their reasons. Your opinion holds the same weight as theirs.
Like.....
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Member Since: 4/3/2011
Posts: 7,281
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Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
Imagine if everyone published whatever they wanted. They'd be no order.
We have moral philosophy for a reason. There is clearly a distinction between whats right and wrong and offending people and mocking them nationally is not the right thing to do.
We all know every action has a reaction and when the action is offensive what do u expect the reaction to be?
Miss me with this freedom of speech ********. When one of their editors insulted Sarkozy's son and paid a price? where were the freedom of speech advocates?
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What kind of blatant Faschism/didactorship society you want.
So you agree with people killing gays because they find it offensive believe it goes against their beliefs.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 473
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bríseis
Except that I havent chosen it. I was baptized as an infant and brought up in a country full of religious traditions.
Coincidentally, I study classical archaeology (and my studies include also ancient religions and philosophies), so I know very well how important was the transition to rational and critical thinking for development of modern society.
And yet the religion is still so deeply rooted in me that even when I stopped practising it years ago, I still feel associated to it to such extent that some insensitive comments about it can touch me. I just cant fully separate myself from it even when I sometimes try to. See, I had no choice, it will always be a part of who I am because it shaped me in such an extent as a kid, and I do think Im not the only one.
As I have stated, its all right to criticize things within the religion, but respectfully, because its not the same as criticizing someones choice of clothes or economic theories, its much more personal and to most people its just a part of who they are in the same way as race and sexuality, they dont see it as something they can choose or easily abandon. And those who want to criticize it should understand this aspect (and power) of religions.
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As too was I baptized as an infant, but it remains my decision to not continue to believe / practice because we all have free will to believe what we like. Like I said, I'm sorry if you have deep ties to religion, but that shouldn't restrict my thought and expression. I am offended everyday, but I realize that those who offend have a right to do so, and the true way to "win" is to present arguments that go against what they are saying.
You use the term "respectful" for how one should criticize religion, but that's a completely subjective word. Charlie Hebdo may feel like they are respectfully criticizing an idea.
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Originally posted by Halien4Life
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What makes you think this is a valid argument ?
Billions believe it is indeed god-given, and they have their reasons. Your opinion holds the same weight as theirs.
Like.....
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Okay, but people who do not share the same view should have the right to treat it with the respect they feel it deserves. No one is stopping them (the people who believe it is God's word) from publishing whatever they choose.
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Member Since: 3/2/2014
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pokistic
Your comments are concerning. I can't believe you are making justifications for these terrorists. There is no excuse to kill someone because of satire criticism no matter to who or what! Satire criticism is a long tradition of the West and its acceptance of free press and free speech. You don't like it, don't buy the magazine or newspaper or move to a more restricted 'values' country. Thats all. But you just don't attack with violence.
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All of this !!!
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Member Since: 3/6/2011
Posts: 11,407
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pokistic
Your comments are concerning. I can't believe you are making justifications for these terrorists. There is no excuse to kill someone because of satire criticism no matter to who or what! Satire criticism is a long tradition of the West and its acceptance of free press and free speech. You don't like it, don't buy the magazine or newspaper or move to a more restricted 'values' country. Thats all. But you just don't attack with violence.
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All have been saying is no one should be surprised that some 'radicals' reacted the way they did.
Considering how Charlie has been provoking and inciting them for a very long time. They were taken to court on multiple counts and won each time.
We all have very different opinions on multiple issues but we keep somethings to ourselves for obvious reasons.
How about you go calling blacks ****** and expect them not to punch you in the face. Sad reality is, violence is always a last resort when all else has been exhausted and to no avail.
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Member Since: 8/23/2011
Posts: 52,519
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cain
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Well, true.
It was more of a 2 birds 1 stone kinda deal.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/8/2006
Posts: 42,086
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Quote:
Originally posted by Auraeolux
You are not siding with terrorists. You are siding with Muslims.
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lol pls you obviously didn't see 99% of the muslim community condemning the terrorists attacks.
One thing is not to agree with whatever the newspaper published and something very different is to support the slaughtering of innocent people
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Member Since: 4/30/2012
Posts: 16,573
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bríseis
Except that I havent chosen it. I was baptized as an infant and brought up in a country full of religious traditions.
Coincidentally, I study classical archaeology (and my studies include also ancient religions and philosophies), so I know very well how important was the transition to rational and critical thinking for development of modern society.
And yet the religion is still so deeply rooted in me that even when I stopped practising it years ago, I still feel associated to it to such extent that some insensitive comments about it can touch me. I just cant fully separate myself from it even when I sometimes try to. See, I had no choice, it will always be a part of who I am because it shaped me in such an extent as a kid, and I do think Im not the only one.
As I have stated, its all right to criticize things within the religion, but respectfully, because its not the same as criticizing someones choice of clothes or economic theories, its much more personal and to most people its just a part of who they are in the same way as race and sexuality, they dont see it as something they can choose or easily abandon. And those who want to criticize it should understand this aspect (and power) of religions.
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And that's exactly the problem with the West. Imposing our views and applying our frames of reference to foreign structures without any sort of sensitivity or hint of nuance.
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Member Since: 4/21/2011
Posts: 42,362
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Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
We all know every action has a reaction and when the action is offensive what do u expect the reaction to be?
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Another one of those "they got what they deserve" comment.
Like, don't you guys see that you're just fortifying the stereotype of people saying that Muslims are violent ? That's literally what you just said...
Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
Am sry but just because christians allow their religion to be ridiculed and dragged thru the mad doesnt mean muslims should react the same way.
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Member Since: 3/2/2014
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
Originally posted by H-I-M
Yall is still going at it ? Fix it Allah Jesus.
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Member Since: 3/6/2011
Posts: 11,407
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Quote:
Originally posted by FreeBitch
What kind of blatant Faschism/didactorship society you want.
So you agree with people killing gays because they find it offensive believe it goes against their beliefs.
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There seems to be a double standard when it comes to muslims esp in europe and its out of ignorance.
You want your way of life 'freedom of speech' to be respected but you cant do the same?
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 473
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rihhyonce
And that's exactly the problem with the West. Imposing our views and applying our frames of reference to foreign structures without any sort of sensitivity or hint of nuance.
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Well it is a French publication.
They (Charlie Hebdo) can't control if people are offended they can only control their actions. If they feel they should publish a representation of Muhammed on the cover, they should have that right without being killed.
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Member Since: 4/21/2011
Posts: 42,362
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Quote:
Originally posted by YouBetterPopBitch
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Stay safe Coralie
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Member Since: 4/3/2011
Posts: 7,281
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Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
There seems to be a double standard when it comes to muslims esp in europe and its out of ignorance.
You want your way of life 'freedom of speech' to be respected but you cant do the same?
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No. Muslims want a double standard.
Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX View Post
Am sry but just because christians allow their religion to be ridiculed and dragged thru the mad doesnt mean muslims should react the same way.
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If you don't want to live in society where you beliefs will be criticize, there're plenty of countries that respect the "No-Allah image allowed" thing.
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Member Since: 3/6/2011
Posts: 11,407
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I find it very hypocritical that you want your westernised way of life to be respected when ur busy ridiculing other peoples way of life.
Freedom of speech must be followed but lets make fun of this muslim guy for praying 5x a day
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 16,371
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Quote:
Originally posted by YoYo
Total free speech? Name ONE country that has total free speech. Don't you live in the UK, where a teenager was sent to jail for insulting Tom Daley on TWITTER (and among other cases, this isn't isolated)? lmfao.
In sweden these things are considered hate crimes (which they are) and are called " “incitement against an ethnic group," which is ILLEGAL, and one man was sentenced to jail for sixth months after drawing racist pictures of black people.
http://hyperallergic.com/154676/sent...-ethnic-group/
IN CANADA a man was jailed for making anti-Islamic remarks in public
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/20...t_muslims.html
In HOLLAND It's the same case: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3257
And I can bring you more and more examples, but these 3 countries are far more progressive than France.
Free speech has never and will never be absolute.
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Are there failures of it? Sure. Are you really comparing hate speech to religious dogmas/teachings about not depicting a dude who lived thousands of years ago?
Free speech might not be absolute, but we should be trying to push towards making it more so, not cowering because people are offended. The West and liberalism beat away Christianity's mass sensitivity (pun intended) and it shouldn't quake at begining to do the same to Islam.
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Member Since: 8/23/2011
Posts: 52,519
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Quote:
Originally posted by H-I-M
Another one of those "they got what they deserve" comment.
Like, don't you guys see that you're just fortifying the stereotype of people saying that Muslims are violent ? That's literally what you just said...
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No, he meant they do not accept it. That does not mean violence is their only reaction.
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Member Since: 4/3/2011
Posts: 7,281
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Quote:
Originally posted by I. AX
I find it very hypocritical that you want your westernised way of life to be respected when ur busy ridiculing other peoples way of life.
Freedom of speech must be followed but lets make fun of this muslim guy for praying 5x a day
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But France is WESTERN country isnt it ?
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