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Discussion: U.S. Soldiers Are Not Heroes Just Because They Are Soldiers?
Banned
Member Since: 4/7/2012
Posts: 14,466
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For instance... my dad is active duty in the Navy. I respect him because I know for a fact the sacrifices he's made. I know that he comes home mad as hell at the young punks he's master chief of. I know that he's had to stick up for someone who was allegedly gay because he was effeminate and a little different. He had to intervene in the bullying numerous times. I know my dad would never treat a woman he worked with (or at all) with such disrespect and disgust. I know my dad would never laugh as he killed and/or tortured somebody he was "instructed" to do so to (even though that's not his job in the Navy, but still). My point is that even though he happens to be my dad, he's showed me why he deserves respect for being in the military. I do not expect anyone else to hold him to the same degree of honor that I do either. It's really that simple.
Holding every soldier to such an automatic degree of high honor and respect is dangerous. Y'all prove this by immediately dismissing this article, crying your red white and blue tears, lighting your candles and going on these long, dramatized rants. It's almost as if the greedy corporations, military leaders and crooked politicians are feeding you what to say through an ear piece.
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Banned
Member Since: 4/7/2012
Posts: 14,466
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
Says the one posting trollish posts to get a response.
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trollish? I've added substantial comments to the conversation. You? You've just ranted since you've entered the thread.
And now, yet again, you have nothing substantial to reply with.
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giliap
people who actually make positive, nonviolent changes in the world. people who are independent thinkers and influence people to question things.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giliap
I am not putting millions of people under one judgmental umbrella. I am simply showing you why I don't a u t o m a t i c a l l y consider e v e r y soldier a hero nor do I a u t o m a t i c a l l y give them my respect j u s t because they're in a uniform.
I do not know every single soldier. I don't know what they've done, who they've helped or hurt therefore I will give them respect just as I would anyone else. Everyone deserves decency but you have to be a respectful person in order to be respected and quite frankly, your entitlement and attitude are not deserving of that as are many other soldiers.
It's not like when I see a soldier I yell murderer! rapists! But I don't give them some kind of special treatment or go out of my way to show respect either. Establish a personal level of communication, show me that you're respectful and I will give you my respect.
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Banned
Member Since: 4/7/2012
Posts: 14,466
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
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thanks for spreading the word and yet again adding nothing to the conversation. you're the one acting like a troll.
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giliap
thanks for spreading the word and yet again adding nothing to the conversation. you're the one acting like a troll.
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I'm not here for conversations; you were having rants over a cluster **** of different, related but separate, issues. I'm here to debate. That, what you were doing was not a debate.
And you posted an article about a sexual abuse case. I have no idea what you were trying to prove with that? You obviously don't have to call that criminal a hero. Who is asking you to do that? No one with half a brain. So what's the point of even bringing it up? You only cause confusion and lead people to believe that you're against all soldiers.
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Member Since: 11/11/2010
Posts: 11,240
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It sort of reminds me of a monarchy where you have to bow to the king and praise him not matter he does. It's like a cult. Cult of the military, worship them or else. I thought that's what they fought against yet they seem want it for themselves.
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
...childlike culture, that insists on anointing all active military members and police officers as “heroes.”
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Who is insisting on anointing ALL military members as heroes? Would you prefer announcers to say "please direct your attention to SOME of the members of our military that have not committed a crime..."? That is ironically childish to say the least.
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Banned
Member Since: 4/7/2012
Posts: 14,466
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
I'm not here for conversations; you were having rants over a cluster **** of different, related but separate, issues. I'm here to debate. That, what you were doing was not a debate.
And you posted an article about a sexual abuse case. I have no idea what you were trying to prove with that? You obviously don't have to call that criminal a hero. Who is asking you to do that? No one with half a brain. So what's the point of even bringing it up? You only cause confusion and lead people to believe that you're against all soldiers.
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let's break this down!
"I'm not here for conversations" "I'm here to debate" A debate is a conversation between two or more individuals arguing different points.
"you were having rants over a cluster **** of different, related but separate, issues." No I wasn't, I was very clear on the intent of posting everything I've posted.
"And you posted an article about a sexual abuse case. I have no idea what you were trying to prove with that?" I'm trying to prove that just because you enlisted, went to war or wear a uniform... you do not automatically deserve my respect. You could be anybody. You could be a freaking spy for another country... idk... there are tons of offenses that you could have committed. Until I know you on a personal level, there's now way you get my undivided respect.
"You obviously don't have to call that criminal a hero. Who is asking you to do that? No one with half a brain. So what's the point of even bringing it up?" You and other people in this thread haven't explicitly said to but your arguments imply that we should... that it's better to blindly assume you're a hero than a psychopath. If you don't worship soldiers as heros, you're disrespectful and anti-american, apparently.
"You only cause confusion and lead people to believe that you're against all soldiers"
I've clarified the exact opposite at least twice, soldier.
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
Originally posted by princedonte
It sort of reminds me of a monarchy where you have to bow to the king and praise him not matter he does. It's like a cult. Cult of the military, worship them or else. I thought that's what they fought against yet they seem want it for themselves.
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This culture and belief is nothing new. Socrates, or maybe Aristotle I can't remember, made a pyramid where he put military members near the top of the social structure. Only those in political positions were above them. It's nothing new.
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Banned
Member Since: 4/7/2012
Posts: 14,466
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
This culture and belief is nothing new. Socrates, or maybe Aristotle I can't remember, made a pyramid where he put military members near the top of the social structure. Only those in political positions were above them. It's nothing new.
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so because it's archaic and the way things have always been done, we should keep doing it?
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giliap
"You obviously don't have to call that criminal a hero. Who is asking you to do that? No one with half a brain. So what's the point of even bringing it up?" You and other people in this thread haven't explicitly said to but your arguments imply that we should... that it's better to blindly assume you're a hero than a psychopath. If you don't worship soldiers as heros, you're disrespectful and anti-american, apparently..
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I can't post a big enough biblio. I can't believe you think that I demand for you to respect military members that have committed crimes. I HAVE NOT ONCE posted here such a thing.
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Member Since: 9/7/2011
Posts: 8,226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giliap
so because it's archaic and the way things have always been done, we should keep doing it?
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Do want you want. I personally can't stand those ceremonies at the baseball and football games. I want them to stop; they make me cringe. What I won't stand for is those in this thread, not you necessarily, calling all soldiers murderers, criminals, and putting so much blame on them for the violence that comes from the Middle East conflicts.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 9,233
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
And I could of just been a pawn, but even a pawn can ultimately check mate a King. I helped ran off savages from villages under extreme hostile conditions. What have you done for your fellow man lately?
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Oop!!
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/1/2012
Posts: 15,668
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This thread is STILL GOING???
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Banned
Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 18,398
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
Wow, just... no words vile! Salon.com? How unexpected. Miss Masciotra is a freedom-hating commie and she should go back to Europe.
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Serious question... Why haven't you jumped off a bridge yet?
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Member Since: 2/15/2012
Posts: 15,569
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
I can't post a big enough biblio. I can't believe you think that I demand for you to respect military members that have committed crimes. I HAVE NOT ONCE posted here such a thing.
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You may not demand it, certainly. But our society most definitely does expect us to revere all soldiers, no matter what. Unless they are publicly accused of war crimes such as desertion - then society condemns the individual without regard of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but that's a topic for another day.
The thing is, I understand that a lot of soldiers do not expect hero worship. Believe me, I do. But our society, being what it is, expects its citizenry to worship the ground that our military walks on, unconditionally, irregardless of their individual merits and what they really did behind the frontlines. I don't think that anyone here thinks that ALL soldiers ever do is rape and pillage civilians, but it has become apparent that this IS a serious problem, particularly during the Vietnam War. War rape, however, is not exclusive to US military, as evidenced by the Rape of Nanking (1937, committed by Japanese troops against Chinese civilians). I think a lot of people who vilify the US military for such things tend to forget that.
All in all, the soldier worship that is embedded in our society is seeded not in actual respect for our military, but it is, in all intents and purposes, Nationalist propaganda. Much like the insertion of "Under God" into our Pledge of Allegiance. Everyone here takes their freedoms for granted at at least one point every single day.
Also, at the end of the day, it is government we should blame for these wars over oil. Not the soldiers. Spitting on troops as they return home doesn't solve anything.
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Member Since: 10/30/2011
Posts: 1,016
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Quote:
Originally posted by Goosey
Wow, just... no words vile! Salon.com? How unexpected. Miss Masciotra is a freedom-hating commie and she should go back to Europe.
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I couldn't have said it better.
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Member Since: 8/1/2012
Posts: 8,763
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Quote:
Originally posted by iStanGaga
Ha Ha Ha Ha. Is that all you have to say? The United States had no interest in the Middle East before the economic boom from the industrial revolution. Oil is what made the US change it's foreign policy. Not some made up power conspiracy you're trying to conjure up without even a single source. You have a lot to learn child. Money makes the world go round child, MONEY! Money is the reason why those that have it chose to invest in oil energy instead of solar when the technology was first discovered. It was much cheaper to produce and gave out way more profits. That is the reason we have these Middle East conflicts. Control by the royal families and businesses and security by the US in exchange for fair prices. And I could of just been a pawn, but even a pawn can ultimately check mate a King. I helped ran off savages from villages under extreme hostile conditions. What have you done for your fellow man lately?
Men want money, power is just a symptom of having that money.
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What exactly are you trying to prove with this post? To make a fool of yourself?
You started it with laughing at me and preaching about how money make the world go round, yet you ended your post with a gif stating that money is power, confirming practically everything I have said. Because thats the truth. Money is power and power is money. Power is not just a "symptom", as you put it. Even a child understands how related they are and how it works.
You have a group of people dissatisfied with the regime in either their own country or in a country where they have some interests. They try to gain as many supporters and funds as they can. Then they dont simply run away whith the money, but invest them into weaponry and military and try to overthrow the regime and establish another one, their own or one that would suit their needs and interests (no matter if economical, ideological, political or other) better.
If you look at the war conflicts of the past, you will find out that this model is almost always appliable. Its not just money they fight for. Or do you think that if you give for example ISIS enough money, they will just stop? It doesnt work that way. Because what they want is also power and control. Its always like that.
Of course the US foreign policy has changed with the petroleum age. Or you really didnt get what I was talking about when I have stated that oil and gas dependency of todays society is used as a way to gain more power in my previous post? Yes, when there is no oil left, the worlds superpowers will probably lose interest in the Middle East. But it doesnt mean that we will suddenly have a world peace then. They will just turn their attention onto other countries and on whatever the most demanded and needed commodities are. The war conflicts will continue. Nothing will change in principle. I dont think its just that hard to understand. Its kind of embarrassing that I have to explain this to you.
And Im no child, hun. I do what I like and believe is right. No, Im not rescuing lives, but at least I go to sleep knowing that my work and actions havent caused death and destruction.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 4,821
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I haven't fully formed my opinion on the topic yet, but I guess I'll spew out my current thoughts on the matter. I think they deserve some respect simply for doing a job that's very life threatening. (With that in mind, why don't other jobs that are equally as dangerous get any respect, or the workers in those fields a national holiday as veterans do? Just a thought.) However, I don't like the compulsory aspect of this respect, because then anything other than respect that's shown is looked down upon and any form of discussion other than immediate praise is seen as unpatriotic and rude. (This is an exaggeration obviously, but it really isn't too far from the truth in my experiences.) Thus, only one frame of mind is fostered and nurtured, while any others are killed.
The following obviously doesn't apply to every single soldier, but I never understood why we praise those that come back from a war for essentially killing or hurting those from another country. What makes us better then them? Who gave us the right to end others' lives simply because they're not from our country? I mean, yes, I'm very grateful to you for "protecting my freedom" - although I feel that phrase is way too vague now and has lost any definite meaning it may have once had - but I'm not going to give you constant praise, nor will I support the government giving you a boatload of benefits, for hurting other people in the name of my country. Killing a person in the name of a country is just as murderous as killing a person out of anger, hatred, or even a twisted mind. It's just that one is condoned and even promoted in certain circumstances, while the other is condemned and punished.
Bang Up brought up a point I had never thought of, one that I touched on a bit in the beginning of this post. Nowadays, at least in the US, those serving in the army choose to do so. Indeed, it is the institution that employs many of these individuals, the method through which they earn their 'bread and butter,' if you will. That being said, why is it so enforced that we must "respect" someone simply for doing their job? (I put "respect" in quotations because, to me at least, it feels more like we must praise them, not simply respect them. There's a large difference between the two.) Why do we not have national holidays and retirement benefits as great as veterans receive for those working in other, equally as dangerous jobs? I believe it's because they too choose to work in those fields, and thus understand the risks at hand. Yet those doing the exact same thing by choosing to enter the army are for some reason put on a pedestal of importance. Why should we praise someone for doing the job they chose to do? As Bang Up pointed out, this is entirely different from those who were drafted, many of which did not choose to enter whichever war they were drafted into. Those individuals arguably should be praised, because they did fight bravely in a conflict they were so crudely forced into.
In conclusion, I hope I have not offended anyone. I do respect those that fight in wars, because it is a dangerous line of work. However, it ends at respect. I am not going to praise anyone for bringing more negativity into this world, which is all that wars do. Yes, the wars themselves are not the fault of soldiers - after all, they're just following orders - but then, I'm not blaming them for the wars themselves. I'm just not going to praise them for taking part in them either.
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Member Since: 4/22/2009
Posts: 11,768
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It's not really the military's fault they get dragged into pointless wars though. It's all politics. They just do what they're told.
However, I do agree the blind, aggressive patriotism is, like, so Nazi Germany and terrifying.
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