no, they're not alike. in painting or visual , every chromaticity between dark and light can create a certain particularity of a picture, if you painted 10 different landscape pictures with 10 different tones of red, every of them would present as an individual picture and could be for sale as specific picture.
in the world of sound, people don't listen to every decibel of a sound dynamic like the way they enjoy a shade of color of a picture, what human enjoys in the sound is movement of sound from fast to slow, from loud to quite, from low to high....and with dynamic of a sound, the only thing we can do is controling it's volume and it requires the practice not creativity
But you're not even thinking creatively.
You could easily do ten different uses of decibel increase/decrease in a song. For example, one could just always be getting louder the entire chorus, another could be getting louder followed by a quick descent into quietness, then loud again, another could start loud and get super quiet and then a little louder but the quiet again, etc. etc. It's not as completely obvious as with visuals because with sound there is the element of time. You cannot just look and see it all at once, but you can still be creative with it. If you looked at visualizations of different ways of being creative with decibels, you could see the ups and downs and how they all differ.
Right! The hive can be so silly when it comes to Bey. They act like she's a competent vocalist..She can barely compare to vocalists like Rihanna and Katy. She's lucky she has her performance abilities and her looks, right. Let's leave this place and let the Hive stay delusional and confused..kay!
Is this a serious comment or is it sarcasm? I don't have avatars or signatures on so I really can't tell if this is a Bey stan. There is no way someone could think that someone like Katy who can hardly deliver a flawless vocal performance 50% of the time, is more competent than Beyoncé.
When you listen to Minnie Riperton, Nat King Cole, Billie Holiday and Nina Simone on a regular we will come back and talk of vocals. Until then I'm going to make this the last time i post here, its embarrassing on this generation to even begin to describe how talented Beyonce is vocally when there are woman that majorly surpassed her 50 years ago. The only artist who will remain in that bracket is Mariah. And there is a ton of female vocalists before Beyonce's name crops up - Whitney, Barbara Streisand, Cher, Celine Dion - just to name a few.. Theres a ton on the lower scale too. But y'all disagree when its blatantly obvious..
bored now.
If it's embarrassing for this generation that Beyoncé is considered one of the best vocalists, then it's even more so embarrassing for the rest of the pop universe which can barely even match what Beyoncé brings to the stage.
Your personal opinion is that she cannot match those singers from the past. In the case of some, I think she does. We all know Beyoncé is not the greatest singer of all time. But she is FAR above average. But let's not let nostalgia and/or stan politics cloud our judgement.
Is this a serious comment or is it sarcasm? I don't have avatars or signatures on so I really can't tell if this is a Bey stan. There is no way someone could think that someone like Katy who can hardly deliver a flawless vocal performance 50% of the time, is more competent than Beyoncé.
I am the creator of this thread and in every beyonce "vocalist" thread known to man.
I Stan solely for her vocal talent -to the death-
I know virtually every part of this monster's voice
Every strength and weakness
Even as a perfectionist, I can tell when she's nervous (yes bey gets nervous when performing vocally taxing numbers), sick or fatigue
..a modest hive member.
Definitely sarcasm
I am the creator of this thread and in every beyonce "vocalist" thread known to man.
I Stan solely for her vocal talent -to the death-
I know virtually every part of this monster's voice
Every strength and weakness
Even as a perfectionist, I can tell when she's nervous (yes bey gets nervous when performing vocally taxing numbers), sick or fatigue
..a modest hive member.
Definitely sarcasm
Ah ok. Thanks for clearing that up lol.
I really like hearing it when Beyonce's voice is a bit rough. Like for all of I Am … Your's there is a bit of a roughness that is so nice. Especially when she sings Sweet Dreams.
That doesn't make them vocalists. That makes them interpreters. Try again.
What you remember doesn't matter. You've already shown you don't know much.
You clearly reside in some parallel universe if you think that Tina Turner is a limited vocalist. How are you gonna say Tina Turner is a limited vocalist, yet claim Billie Holliday wasn't? LMAO like I said, you're a pretender.
And Nina Simone screeched, grunted, growled, and screamed also. Her coarse, gritty sound was one of the reasons people loved her. But of course, you don't actually listen to her.
Yawn......
So Tina Turner is and has been known for her vocal ability? Please.. I don't think i've EVER seen any performance from her or READ anything in all my 30 years about Tina's exceptional vocal ability.. Exceptional performer. yes. Vocalist? Rather limited.
and to assume you know what i listen to, is absolutely pathetic, nonsensical and pretty dumb. All you know from me are words on a screen. Try again.
Most people - and i mean REAL people not connected with the Hive and ATRL knows that Beyonce is limited vocally and she is, its blatantly obvious. She hardly conveys any emotion through any of her songs, instead she replaces any natural ability (what is there) with the overuse of her vibrato which completely diminishes the soul from her songs.. Tina done the exact same thing. Which is why Bey and Tina rely so heavily on a "PERFORMANCE" - they are both entertainers, not vocalists. I dont care what anyone says.
and unfortunately for the convoluted and delusional hive - who ATTACK anyone that comes for Beyonce there are thousands of girls out here now that are miles ahead of Beyonce vocally. You will have to deal. I have up and coming singers on my instagram, facebook even REAL FRIENDS who sing FAR more creatively than Beyonce.
They just don't or didnt have a girl group (which basically centered all around Beyonce), a dad as a manager, a label exec for a boyfriend ..
When people here actually dare to claim Beyonce is more vocally creative than Mariah thats when i draw the line... Its actually RIDICULOUS.
I really like hearing it when Beyonce's voice is a bit rough. Like for all of I Am … Your's there is a bit of a roughness that is so nice. Especially when she sings Sweet Dreams.
Ahh...the common cold!! Although annoying as all hell (with the stuffy head, occasional touch of sore throat, infrequent cough, runny nose, in my case, the telltale shift in vocal pitch down toward baritone gravel), it does give the voice a very nice texture, I remember Beyonce's voice was noticeably husky, thicker, and her belts had this dark, brooding aura to them; I appreciated the dramatic flair. It gave everything she song a lot of character because the cold didn't really change the quality of her "high mix-notes/head voice. So there was this dark/light contrast in her range. The huskiness made her sound more like a 60s/70s soul singer, than a contemporary r&b/pop artist.
The highlights were The "love" medley, dejavu, and halo/sweetdreams.
I would guess that the vocal folds were getting inflamed and therefore thicker, which made her vibrato even MORE prominent that night, The raspy quality may come from mucus/phlegm coating the folds and becoming dislodged as the folds vibrate; that's a wild assessment!
Ahh...the common cold!! Although annoying as all hell (with the stuffy head, occasional touch of sore throat, infrequent cough, runny nose, in my case, the telltale shift in vocal pitch down toward baritone gravel), it does give the voice a very nice texture, I remember Beyonce's voice was noticeably husky, thicker, and her belts had this dark, brooding aura to them; I appreciated the dramatic flair. It gave everything she song a lot of character because the cold didn't really change the quality of her "high mix-notes/head voice. So there was this dark/light contrast in her range. The huskiness made her sound more like a 60s/70s soul singer, than a contemporary r&b/pop artist.
The highlights were The "love" medley, dejavu, and halo/sweetdreams.
I would guess that the vocal folds were getting inflamed and therefore thicker, which made her vibrato even MORE prominent that night, The raspy quality may come from mucus/phlegm coating the folds and becoming dislodged as the folds vibrate; that's a wild assessment!
i love your assessment
I think why i loved her Wynn Performance is because she was sick and it brought her voice into another plane, it sounded so different and yeah even me i think i sounded better when i have cold with some occasional nose stuffing
and i must admit when i stanned for Bey i learned a lot of things about music, my ear sharpened to musical nuisances that a normal guy can't normally hear, and yeah i'm getting better at harmonizing myself to music. I love ha
You could easily do ten different uses of decibel increase/decrease in a song. For example, one could just always be getting louder the entire chorus, another could be getting louder followed by a quick descent into quietness, then loud again, another could start loud and get super quiet and then a little louder but the quiet again, etc. etc. It's not as completely obvious as with visuals because with sound there is the element of time. You cannot just look and see it all at once, but you can still be creative with it. If you looked at visualizations of different ways of being creative with decibels, you could see the ups and downs and how they all differ.
i still don't see the vocal creativity explained in your post. if a singer carries out the increasing/decreasing of volume in a song or to do any kind of vocal patterns of a song, that's because the song is arranged that way and that arranging part belongs to songwritting/producing. the same explanation could be applied to painting, i assume the vocalist is a color and the painter is the songwritter/producer and that painter has to thoroughly knows every character of the color that he uses from light contrast, varies of the color, psychological effect of the color ect ect if he wants to paint the picture. what i want to say is that creativity is what we do in studio. but in case the singer want to vary from the way they sing studio by unnecessarily adding more vibrato, riff, growling or to do a series of increase/decrease the volume like beyonce did in DIL, then it's called oversing or overusing those techniques rather than creative
btw the difference of increasing/decreasing between singing and painting is that in painting, people do it for the general purpose but in singing ( Patti Labelle in Over The Rainbow for example ) it's call ruining the general meaning of the song
So Tina Turner is and has been known for her vocal ability? Please.. I don't think i've EVER seen any performance from her or READ anything in all my 30 years about Tina's exceptional vocal ability.. Exceptional performer. yes. Vocalist? Rather limited.
and to assume you know what i listen to, is absolutely pathetic, nonsensical and pretty dumb. All you know from me are words on a screen. Try again.
Most people - and i mean REAL people not connected with the Hive and ATRL knows that Beyonce is limited vocally and she is, its blatantly obvious. She hardly conveys any emotion through any of her songs, instead she replaces any natural ability (what is there) with the overuse of her vibrato which completely diminishes the soul from her songs.. Tina done the exact same thing. Which is why Bey and Tina rely so heavily on a "PERFORMANCE" - they are both entertainers, not vocalists. I dont care what anyone says.
and unfortunately for the convoluted and delusional hive - who ATTACK anyone that comes for Beyonce there are thousands of girls out here now that are miles ahead of Beyonce vocally. You will have to deal. I have up and coming singers on my instagram, facebook even REAL FRIENDS who sing FAR more creatively than Beyonce.
They just don't or didnt have a girl group (which basically centered all around Beyonce), a dad as a manager, a label exec for a boyfriend ..
When people here actually dare to claim Beyonce is more vocally creative than Mariah thats when i draw the line... Its actually RIDICULOUS.
lol. You're serious that you think that it's only the Hive who praise her vocals? What about other legends, stars and people who know a good voice like Prince, Stevie Wonder, Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross, etc.?
As I said before, if Beyoncé is considered limited vocally, then what does that make the rest of her peers? No one has said she is as good as Whitney or whatever. But she is a very skilled and talented singer. Going to such efforts to try and disprove something so obvious only looks pressed.
i still don't see the vocal creativity explained in your post. if a singer carries out the increasing/decreasing of volume in a song or to do any kind of vocal patterns of a song, that's because the song is arranged that way and that arranging part belongs to songwritting/producing. the same explanation could be applied to painting, i assume the vocalist is a color and the painter is the songwritter/producer and that painter has to thoroughly knows every character of the color that he uses from light contrast, varies of the color, psychological effect of the color ect ect if he wants to paint the picture. what i want to say is that creativity is what we do in studio. but in case the singer want to vary from the way they sing studio by unnecessarily adding more vibrato, riff, growling or to do a series of increase/decrease the volume like beyonce did in DIL, then it's called oversing or overusing those techniques rather than creative
btw the difference of increasing/decreasing between singing and painting is that in painting, people do it for the general purpose but in singing ( Patti Labelle in Over The Rainbow for example ) it's call ruining the general meaning of the song
First of all, Patti LaBelle is an amazing singer, and while I agree she "ruins" songs in the way that she often makes the melodies unrecognizable, she has her own way of doing things and it slays. Essentially that means she is a creative, authoritative singer. Not some popstar who sings exactly what they hear on the demo, even if it means imitating someone's signature style. Secondly, you could say that overusing contrast in painting ruins it, it's all subjective and so there is absolutely no right or wrong way to do it. A painting of a flower could be ruined/unrecognizable because of all the shadows, but that is what makes you an artist: seeing things differently. Simply put, for you to say increasing and decreasing vocals cannot be used creatively shows a lack of creativity on your part.
You are forgetting (or don't know) that Beyonce does her own vocal production, meaning she decides how her voice sounds, not someone else. Thus, she often ends up changing the writing of the song to suit her vocal production (another way she gets writing credits) and thus is adding to the creativity of both the song and vocals. So using your analogy, Beyonce is the painter of her own voice. Also Beyoncé wrote DIL so… she's not over singing, she's doing it as intended.
To show an example, this is not Beyoncé singing off a written piece. She is free styling and testing out vocals for her record.
"i think she overuses those vocal techniques rather than rationally use it to improve her musical artistry"-I cannot debate a subjective bias..I respect your opinion.
"the overabundant of vibrato lines make her songs sound souless and sometimes they don't match the theme and lyrics of the song" - Beyonce's prominent vibrato is simply apart of her voice, just as much as Whitney's vibrato is apart of hers, or the fact that John Legend has an inherent raspiness that will be with him until the day he dies. Beyonce has always had a natural vibrato, (it's perfectly space), but she can change the frequency, or depth (making it dramatic/light for artistic purposes). She's had it since a child (even then it was thick and noticeably).
"adding head tone lines as the accompany in a pop song doesn't mean that song has opera influence, and it actually belong to the arrangement which was processed in studio" - I'm not talking about the notes themselves. I'm talking about the WAY the notes were sung. They were reinforced head tones were "classically" inspired. The way the vowels were formed, the sophisticated placement of her voice (she placed the note to receive full head resonance) and the style of the arpeggio scales resembled that of a classical singer spinning head tones in the 6th octave--full chord closure. Ofcourse it belonged in the arrangement because Beyonce added it; just like the way she would add overlapping undertones (usually melismatic phrases) in her songs for effect. This was a stylistic choice, to bring a different element to the song. Even though they were processed, Beyonce has been shown to exhibit the same feats live, during the live rendition of holy grail!
"btw, the reason why beyonce can switch from head register to chest easily without break is because she has a natural voice of a lyrico coloratura which gives her the agility to do that" - I know that she's a lyric coloratura mezzo soprano. Having an agile voice does warrant some control, giving the voice ability to transition quickly throughout their vocal range, HOWEVER that doesn't give most the ability to have a range so connected, so even and perfectly mixed (blended), that one is able to bridge their passagios to the point of homogenity! --like beyonce. It's easy to transition from a head tone to a belt in one breath like most coloruturas i.e MARIAH, BUT it's quite a different story. To start from a rounded head note and slowly add chest resonance, through extreme breath control and gradual laryngeal (muscular) adjustments to produce a healthy well placed belt. As a coloratura, Mariah STILL wouldn't be able to replicate this feat because her range isn't as connected as beyonce because of the amount of chord control needed to make that transition without any register breaks--takes a well connected voice, one of Beyonce's or Whitney's caliber. It has nothing to do with voice type..Again, it was a stylistic choice.
First of all, Patti LaBelle is an amazing singer, and while I agree she "ruins" songs in the way that she often makes the melodies unrecognizable, she has her own way of doing things and it slays. Essentially that means she is a creative, authoritative singer. Not some popstar who sings exactly what they hear on the demo, even if it means imitating someone's signature style. Secondly, you could say that overusing contrast in painting ruins it, it's all subjective and so there is absolutely no right or wrong way to do it. A painting of a flower could be ruined/unrecognizable because of all the shadows, but that is what makes you an artist: seeing things differently. Simply put, for you to say increasing and decreasing vocals cannot be used creatively shows a lack of creativity on your part.
You are forgetting (or don't know) that Beyonce does her own vocal production, meaning she decides how her voice sounds, not someone else. Thus, she often ends up changing the writing of the song to suit her vocal production (another way she gets writing credits) and thus is adding to the creativity of both the song and vocals. So using your analogy, Beyonce is the painter of her own voice. Also Beyoncé wrote DIL so… she's not over singing, she's doing it as intended.
To show an example, this is not Beyoncé singing off a written piece. She is free styling and testing out vocals for her record.
nah Patti is not, if she wants to be a great singer, she has to learn respecting the melody first or everything she sings is just a mess of assorted vocal skills that she want to show off. it's so easily to play with something without framework and rule, right ? the abandon and creativity are also easily confused. there's a misunderstanding here, if a flower couldn't be recognized by its contrast. it's the purpose of the painter from the begining. it's far different from a singer who use some vocal expression that don't match the lyrics, just imagine the way Patti sings a dreamy song like Over The Rainbow with her intension, dramatic, creaming oh wow, it could be no problem to those who are vocal fiend that don't care about the lyrics and meaning of the song
of course Beyonce take part in vocal production by singing the lead and the backing vocal but about writting and compose vocal arrangement, harmonizing, splitting, joining little parts of vocal audio, making layer, pich, dynamic editing ect ect? i'm not sure, because there's so much controversy about her songwritting but i don't want to be off topic for this problem, the video you posted just prove one part of her production process is singing
nah Patti is not, if she wants to be a great singer, she has to learn respecting the melody first or everything she sings is just a mess of assorted vocal skills that she want to show off. it's so easily to play with something without framework and rule, right ? the abandon and creativity are also easily confused. there's a misunderstanding here, if a flower couldn't be recognized by its contrast. it's the purpose of the painter from the begining. it's far different from a singer who use some vocal expression that don't match the lyrics, just imagine the way Patti sings a dreamy song like Over The Rainbow with her intension, dramatic, creaming oh wow, it could be no problem to those who are vocal fiend that don't care about the lyrics and meaning of the song
of course Beyonce take part in vocal production by singing the lead and the backing vocal but about writting and compose vocal arrangement, harmonizing, splitting, joining little parts of vocal audio, making layer, pich, dynamic editing ect ect? i'm not sure, because there's so much controversy about her songwritting but i don't want to be off topic for this problem, the video you posted just prove one part of her production process is singing
It's just a very different style that Patti has. You could say she takes away from the meaning but when she is SANGING "whyyyyyy ooohh WHYYYY CAAAAANN'T IIIIIIIIIII-iiiii-IIIII--iiii-IIIII" on Over the Rainbow, others can perceive the emotion, the intense desire and need to be over that rainbow, not some schmaltzy little wishing song. Who says its dreamy? The guy who wrote it? And so it must always be dreamy? A good cover thinks past the original intention of a song and makes it new. That is creativity. She makes it her own and I don't think you need to respect a melody to be creative. You can, but verging off from the rules of the melody gives you a chance to be creative. She doesn't even verge off the song's framework either. She still sings the lyrics, follows the general melody but add her flare.
As for Beyoncé, she does do all her vocal arranging. Someone may write a song with the melody and she will then take it and change it for her needs. Adding harmony, and all the other things you mentioned. She has been consistently assisting on the production of songs, and many people who have worked with her talk about how she knows exactly what she wants.
I'm not sure if you know Beyoncé's version, but here is the original demo. It's very similar, but the vocals are noticeably changed and improved. There is harmonies added, layering, etc.
Anyway, it's all opinion.
I get why someone wouldn't like Patti's singing style. I personally love it. I love the showmanship, I love the spectacle, I feel the emotion. You might not be we are not the same person.
[QUOTE=Nhật Thực;24056750] to be a great singer, she has to learn respecting the melody first or everything she sings is just a mess of assorted vocal skills that she want to show off. it's so easily to play with something without framework and rule, right ? the abandon and creativity are also easily confused. there's a misunderstanding here/QUOTE]
You have a certain point, but I don't think this applies to Beyonce, currently! To be a TRULY great singer/vocalist, one must be able to sing with a combination of skill, intelligence and appreciation for factors such as the occasion and the sentiment called for by a songs lyrics and musical arrangement and I think Beyonce does a GREAT job at this with a pretty good balance and awareness of everything in these terms.
There has clearly been evident growth on a musicality and technical front that saw her tone down her excessive riffs and runs from her DC era to giving appropriate and intelligent vocal performances to tribute Barbra Streisand and as a part of her Cadillac Records and "4" works, along with a few stellar vocal presentations such at Rocket, Jealous, and Superpoewr
What's wrong with that? If I'm not mistaken this is a forum not Twitter. We are having rather civilized conversations as we should. Ideally this site would be full of essays, not short shady quips and "SLAY QUEEN" and "Not when _____ didn't even go platinum"s and the like.
Exceptional performer. yes. Vocalist? Rather limited. 