[Ecstasy]

Originally posted by Communion

So a nun cannot be empowered to you?

No? wtf kind of question is this

[Shizuka]

Originally posted by Ecstasy

There is nothing, NOTHING in Islam that in any way is empowering to a woman. So no, a muslim woman wearing a hijab will never be empowered

To the specifics of the headscarf, as Communion's examples are things that had nothing empowering about them and once reclaimed became something that could be though.

The main issue seems to be with the fact that it is still used as an oppressive through law in countries which makes reclamation difficult cause it's an in practice problem. Those other examples are typically after the oppressive laws ruling said symbols and slurs are okay have been removed.

But with that train of thought, it doesn't seem like the method would be to erase all parts of Islam.

[FBF]

Originally posted by Communion

So a nun cannot be empowered to you?
And on the opposite extreme, a sex worker could never feel empowered, according to you?
So you think forcing Muslim women o take off clothing in the middle of a busy beach at gun point like the French do is more empowering to women than letting them express themselves?

If you think every thing invented by the patriarchy will always be oppressive, even when women take back control of it, then the very things the forum you're currently on are oppressive too. Pop music? Oppressive. Films? Oppressive.

I'm going to start reporting you if you keep spreading those lies. I'm not going to prove you wrong every two weeks sis, it's enough.

[AvrilLaQueen]

Originally posted by Communion

Gay people for decades have literally reappropriated and took back the pink triangle as a symbol.

Yeah, and as you can clearly see they painted pink triangle as a bad thing that has happen for the LGBT comunity.

Imagine it showing a burqa/niqab/hijab and saying silence = death as well. I think my point is clear.

[Communion]

Originally posted by FBF

I'm going to start reporting you if you keep spreading those lies. I'm not going to prove you wrong every two weeks sis, it's enough.

This is empowerment to y'all?

Sounds like y'all want to control women just as much as Islamic leaders in the Middle East.

[Ecstasy]

Wearing a Hijab as a fashion accessory and wearing it because you follow the teachings of Islam are two different things. If you follow Islam and cover up because of it then no, you cannot be empowered. How the hell does one follow a religion that thinks you're less than a man and be empowered and I never endorsed what the french did. That was one of the most disgusting things I saw

[Communion]

Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen

Yeah, and as you can clearly see they painted pink triangle as a bad thing that has happen for the LGBT comunity.

Imagine it showing a burqa/niqab/hijab and saying silence = death as well. I think my point is clear.

UMMMMMMM. No?

Silence = not talking about AIDs.
As in not talking about AIDs = death.

The pink triangle is used as a pride symbol in all of those examples.

The pink triangle was literally reclaimed as a gay pride symbol used to represent gay activist groups who would be demanding Congress and the POTUS at the time take action on thousands dying of AIDs and the mistreatment of gays

[Lucas32]

Originally posted by Communion

Um, because it was an AIDs symbol of rebellion decades ago and most people who championed such taking back of the symbol are dead, because of AIDs.

Do you say gay men who take back the word ****** or people of color who reclaim slurs are "oppressing themselves"? The logic is nonsense and part of respectability politics. Of course a Muslim woman can wear a hijab and be empowered if she chooses to wear it.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. They can feel empowered by whatever they choose but don't be surprised people will point out that that symbol is still used as a tool of opression in parts where said group does not have those freedoms. There is the obvious difference between the pink triangle and the hijab that even in muslim countries where are no pink triangles given out to people so the symbol can be detached from history in a much easier way than the hijab which is still present and even mandatory in many of those countries.

Originally posted by Communion

This is empowerment to y'all?

Sounds like y'all want to control women just as much as Islamic leaders in the Middle East.

I spoke out against a ban just a page ago so now I don't support this.

[FBF]

Originally posted by Communion

This is empowerment to y'all?

Sounds like y'all want to control women just as much as Islamic leaders in the Middle East.

Girl we've had this talk like three times already. This is one occurence over the summer when some municipality took ordinance against burkini, those ordinance lasted 2 weeks before being repealed by le Conseil d'Etat (our Supreme Court basically).

So what you deem as "the french do" is something that lasted 2 weeks before being repealed by "the french" Supreme Court. Stop the lies.

Nobody think it's empowerment, even in so called conservative France since again this **** LASTED 2 FREAKING WEEKS AND THE ORDINANCE WAS TAKEN BY LIKE A HANDFUL OF MUNICIPALITY HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND ?

[AvrilLaQueen]

I'mma just leave this video from an ex-muslim atheist here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CsU3D59XC4

[Ecstasy]

Originally posted by Shizuka

To the specifics of the headscarf, as Communion's examples are things that had nothing empowering about them and once reclaimed became something that could be though.

The main issue seems to be with the fact that it is still used as an oppressive through law in countries which makes reclamation difficult cause it's an in practice problem. Those other examples are typically after the oppressive laws ruling said symbols and slurs are okay have been removed.

But with that train of thought, it doesn't seem like the method would be to erase all parts of Islam.

this also holds true. You cannot reclaim it because the middle eastern patriarchy still has the power and holds it. But again, how does one follow teachings of a religion that says you are less than anoher person and feel empowered. If one wearing a hijab comes from religious practice then I fail to see how that can empower in any way.

[Communion]

Originally posted by Lucas32

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. They can feel empowered by whatever they choose but don't be surprised people will point out that that symbol is still used as a tool of opression in parts where said group does not have those freedoms. There is the obvious difference between the pink triangle and the hijab that even in muslim countries where are no pink triangles given out to people so the symbol can be detached from history in a much easier way than the hijab which is still present and even mandatory in many of those countries.

And yet many of you are saying women who live in secular countries where they have free will and where the hijab is NOT an oppressive symbol should be STRIPPED of their right and choice to wear it. So again - do you demand that nuns be stripped of their habit?

[Shizuka]

Originally posted by Lucas32

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. They can feel empowered by whatever they choose but don't be surprised people will point out that that symbol is still used as a tool of opression in parts where said group does not have those freedoms. There is the obvious difference between the pink triangle and the hijab that even in muslim countries where are no pink triangles given out to people so the symbol can be detached from history in a much easier way than the hijab which is still present and even mandatory in many of those countries.

Yeah that's a big thing that separates them, and the biggest problem in the discussion.

But is reclamation always having to be after the fact the oppressive selection in talk has been removed of power? Could the reclamation during a power struggle not be considered an act of trying to remove the power?

It could be said it just plays into the power, which makes it tricky.

[Lucas32]

Originally posted by Communion

And yet many of you are saying women who live in secular countries where they have free will and where the hijab is NOT an oppressive symbol should be STRIPPED of their right and choice to wear it. So again - do you demand that nuns be stripped of their habit?

For the third time I don't support a ban on any type of clothing. I don't know how I make it any clearer for you.

[AvrilLaQueen]

Originally posted by Communion

UMMMMMMM. No?

Silence = not talking about AIDs.
As in not talking about AIDs = death.

The pink triangle is used as a pride symbol in all of those examples.

The pink triangle was literally reclaimed as a gay pride symbol used to represent gay activist groups who would be demanding Congress and the POTUS at the time take action on thousands dying of AIDs and the mistreatment of gays

again, using pink triangle as an example of mistreatment of gays. If women used headscarf to show how symbolic it is for mistreatment of women, the point is very clear.

[Shizuka]

Originally posted by Ecstasy

this also holds true. You cannot reclaim it because the middle eastern patriarchy still has the power and holds it. But again, how does one follow teachings of a religion that says you are less than anoher person and feel empowered. If one wearing a hijab comes from religious practice then I fail to see how that can empower in any way.

I didn't want to go into those follow the teachings being a reasoning for the headscarf per se, just the feeling of wearing the headscarf in itself.

It's a double edged sword to attempt to reclaim something that is already in power, because it is always going to be linked into the oppressive nature in that moment.

[FBF]

Originally posted by Communion

And yet many of you are saying women who live in secular countries where they have free will and where the hijab is NOT an oppressive symbol should be STRIPPED of their right and choice to wear it. So again - do you demand that nuns be stripped of their habit?

You're comparing religious ministers (not sure of the english term there, basically religious "personnel") to "regular" people, the comparison doesn't stand. In France for example, it's accepted that Imam, Priest and so on are entitled to wear their religious clothes.

I personnaly have 0 issue with hijab. I'm not here for burqa though.

[Ecstasy]

Originally posted by Communion

And yet many of you are saying women who live in secular countries where they have free will and where the hijab is NOT an oppressive symbol should be STRIPPED of their right and choice to wear it. So again - do you demand that nuns be stripped of their habit?

Why do you always show p here and put words in our mouths. WHO SAID THIS. QUOTE THEM ****ING QUOTE THEM SAYING THIS

[Communion]

Originally posted by Lucas32

For the third time I don't support a ban on any type of clothing. I don't know how I make it any clearer for you.

But if a woman in America is saying SHE feels empowered to wear her hijab, especially in the face of racialized hate crimes where she's called racial slurs and attacked just for existing, why would you go up to her and let her know "that symbol is still used as a tool of opression in parts where said group does not have those freedom"? Why should anyone? Why do you think going up to her is okay?

She's most likely not stupid. She doesn't need you being condescending.

Do you go up to online sex workers in America & Western Europe and preach to them that they should know that women in Africa are still forced into sex slavery even when those women's realities have no connection to the women you're speaking to?

For people who hate preachy SJWs, many of y'all are very condescending and assuming in what people know. Muslim women choosing to wear the hijab don't actually need people to "remind them!!" that other Muslim women don't have the choice elsewhere.

[Shizuka]

Originally posted by AvrilLaQueen

again, using pink triangle as an example of mistreatment of gays. If women used headscarf to show how symbolic it is for mistreatment of women, the point is very clear.

I don't think so? It's being used to express against mistreatment and being silent by taking a symbol that oppressed to give a voice in to demand positive change.