[Retro]

Can we talk for a moment about the viability of single-payer, regardless of congressional obstruction?

For example, it looks like they did it in Vermont... and then it failed.

[hooky]

Originally posted by RatedG²

Because Bernie will never get his system passed. So instead of ripping apart Obamacare and trying to introduce something that will not work at all, it's much easier to just work on Obamacare and fix the cracks. The millions helped with Obamacare would agree and don't want to be thrown back into limbo which will not be solved with a Sanders presidency

Why are you assuming that Bernie would first repeal Obamacare?

Single-payer would replace Obamacare at the same time that Obamacare ends. It's the only way that makes sense.

[Bloo]

Originally posted by Retro

Can we talk for a moment about the viability of single-payer, regardless of congressional obstruction?

For example, it looks like they did it in Vermont... and then it failed.

I love this topic. Sanders will constantly mention how we're the only country in the modern world that doesn't have single-payer and will cite countries like Canada... where most of the citizens hate their healthcare because it takes months to go see a doctor.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Bloo

That IS true...

[Bloo]

Originally posted by Marvin

Obama really was a great candidate but in the end could not accomplish what he wanted to do because of Congress. This won't happen again with Bernie, I just know it.

He went into his presidency with a Democratic majority in Congress and couldn't get stuff done....

But, Bernie won't have a gridlock happen to him with a Republican majority because you simply know it won't happen..? I don't understand idealism.

[Bloo]

Originally posted by Marvin

Did you not read my post? When did I say that socialism is a bad thing or a dirty word? I simply said that democratic socialism and socialism is no different and that adjective was only added to distinguish it from the extreme, Marxist brand of socialism that Americans are scared of (which isn't entirely socialism).

[RatedG²]

Originally posted by Marvin

And the millions it didn't help would disagree... Obamacare was good but we can and should want more. Obamacare will not solve the problem, no matter how much they try to fix it.



Not a socialist. And if democrats are that childish then we deserve to continually fall in all worldwide rankings

People have to stop getting so caught up in party titles. It's literally ruining the country

That's why Hillary said she'll fix it. So the millions of left out will now be covered. It's better than scrapping it all together over a system that will not get passed.

He's not a socialist but you think republicans will care? No. They won't be caught dead working with a "socialist" (or democratic socialist even though that's not really a thing). Even if the Dems wanna help there wouldn't be enough of them. To have a majority you need blue state wins as well as purple state and a few red state wins. A "socialist" on top of the ticket will not win you those. (Well technically it can but its that much harder).

But that's enough for today. We'll continue this after Nevada (or if Clinton somehow loses I'll make my great escape!)

[Reza]

Bernie is literally tearing the Democratic party apart and trump is doing the same to the republicans. I predict our downfall in the next 8 years.

[Mike91]

Marvin why do you continue to argue with Hillary supporters? It's a waste of time. They just sprout the same nonsensical rhetoric as Hillary, even if it makes zero sense.

Just let them think Hillary is the most electable candidate so we can sit back and kii when she loses the GE later this year (most democrats don't even like or trust her) and we have a republican back in office.

I just hope Bernie eventually runs an independent campaign because I do believe he could take a lot of support away from both Hillary and whoever the GOP elect. He got the national attention necessary to run a mainstream campaign and I hope that's how it ends up going.

[Retro]

US politics gets so tedious and boring with two parties. I mean, the Democrats are obviously right and the Republicans are obviously wrong, so...

I guess that's why primaries are more exciting for politinerds and why they often attract more radical voters.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Bloo

You think Hillary pointing out weaknesses in his policies is an "attack"??

If Bernie gets nominated, you're gonna flip during the GE when the Republicans have field day with him.


Here are some big ones:

• Same sex marriage (in 1982 he said that marriage was between a man and a woman, in 2006 he believed in civil unions which is what Hillary believed in 2007).
• Flipped on guns which is a major issue. The NRA even helped him get elected as Senator (IIRC), he also voted against the Brady Bill 5 times.
• Voted against the Iraq War in 2002, then voted to provide additional funding for that war and Afghanistan in 2003. He also refused to appose the Afghan War in 2001.
• Speaks against toxic byproduct in 2016, but sponsored a bill in 1998 Vermont's nuclear waste in Sierra Blana, TX.

Politifact said he was "there" on same-sex marriage 20 years ago He's been for LGBT equality for a while. Decades.
He lives in Vermont where most people have guns. I can't blame him.
He's ALWAYS been against the war, and only voted for it because of other bills included with it.
The last one is kinda just eh to me

Hillary's flipped on a lot of issues too (way more than this) though so this is a little confusing.

Originally posted by Bloo

He went into his presidency with a Democratic majority in Congress and couldn't get stuff done....

But, Bernie won't have a gridlock happen to him with a Republican majority because you simply know it won't happen..? I don't understand idealism.

Yes. But I'm done talking about that!

Originally posted by Bloo

Did you not read my post? When did I say that socialism is a bad thing or a dirty word? I simply said that democratic socialism and socialism is no different and that adjective was only added to distinguish it from the extreme, Marxist brand of socialism that Americans are scared of (which isn't entirely socialism).

It's a necessary adjective though. People are going to think he's trying to change the way the entire economy works and convert to communism

Originally posted by RatedG²

That's why Hillary said she'll fix it. So the millions of left out will now be covered. It's better than scrapping it all together over a system that will not get passed.

He's not a socialist but you think republicans will care? No. They won't be caught dead working with a "socialist" (or democratic socialist even though that's not really a thing). Even if the Dems wanna help there wouldn't be enough of them. To have a majority you need blue state wins as well as purple state and a few red state wins. A "socialist" on top of the ticket will not win you those. (Well technically it can but its that much harder).

Link to how she'll fix it? And do you actually think it will work?

We could argue over the hypotheticals all day so I'll just stop

Originally posted by RatedG²

But that's enough for today. We'll continue this after Nevada (or if Clinton somehow loses I'll make my great escape!)

See you in November I guess!

[Retro]

Originally posted by Mike91

Marvin why do you continue to argue with Hillary supporters? It's a waste of time. They just sprout the same nonsensical rhetoric as Hillary, even if it makes zero sense.

I was unaware that "it's not going to happen" was "nonsensical rhetoric"

welp

[Sasha.]

has hillary released her speech transcripts yet

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Mike91

Marvin why do you continue to argue with Hillary supporters? It's a waste of time. They just sprout the same nonsensical rhetoric as Hillary, even if it makes zero sense.

Just let them think Hillary is the most electable candidate so we can sit back and kii when she loses the GE later this year (most democrats don't even like or trust her) and we have a republican back in office.

I just hope Bernie eventually runs an independent campaign because I do believe he could take a lot of support away from both Hillary and whoever the GOP elect. He got the national attention necessary to run a mainstream campaign and I hope that's how it ends up going.

True, it's way too much to keep up with and it's just starts going in circles

Bernie could definitely get a lot of support running as an independent. It'd be such an exciting election if he did.

[Retro]

Originally posted by Sasha.

has hillary released her speech transcripts yet

no, internal polling probably showed that nobody cared

[Bloo]

Originally posted by Marvin

Politifact said he was "there" on same-sex marriage 20 years ago He's been for LGBT equality for a while. Decades.

He himself said that he was for civil unions in 2006, and in 1982 said that he believe marriage was between a man and a woman... I don't care about Politifact at that point. Hillary has also been for LGBTQ equality as well, it just doesn't boil down to same-sex marriage (for either candidate) and a lot of Bernie supporters boil it down to that one issue and falsely believe that Hillary is the only one to evolve on that issue.

He lives in Vermont where most people have guns. I can't blame him.

That excuse can be used to justify why Hillary is let hateful of Wall street because she lives in New York.

He's ALWAYS been against the war, and only voted for it because of other bills included with it.

Lies. He also was in favor of the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1998 (or 1999, can't remember off the top of my head).

Hillary's flipped on a lot of issues too (way more than this) though so this is a little confusing.

I never said Hillary hasn't flipped on issues. I'm fine with Bernie evolving on issues like Hillary. It's his fans and (him to some extent) that try to paint him as never changing on issues is what is annoying. It's a flawed, inaccurate myth.

It's a necessary adjective though. People are going to think he's trying to change the way the entire economy works and convert to communism

He is proposing massive changes to the way the economy works, though... It's also not a political system, it's an economic system. It's not socialism vs. democracy, it's socialism vs. capitalism. The adjective literally means nothing and people won't pay attention to it because Americans fear the idea of socialism too much.

[Bloo]

Originally posted by Mike91

Marvin why do you continue to argue with Hillary supporters? It's a waste of time. They just sprout the same nonsensical rhetoric as Hillary, even if it makes zero sense.

I literally read that Bernie will have a different revolution than Obama simply because it just won't happen, but Hillary supporters aren't making sense?

Also, I disagree with Bernie and would rather him not be president, but I would gladly vote for him over the leading Republicans (the only one that I would look into more is Kasich). If you would rather a Republican win just in spite of Hillary getting the nomination... You probably shouldn't be in politics. This isn't a pop music award show.

[accelgors]

Originally posted by Mike91

Marvin why do you continue to argue with Hillary supporters? It's a waste of time. They just sprout the same nonsensical rhetoric as Hillary, even if it makes zero sense.

Just let them think Hillary is the most electable candidate so we can sit back and kii when she loses the GE later this year (most democrats don't even like or trust her) and we have a republican back in office.

I just hope Bernie eventually runs an independent campaign because I do believe he could take a lot of support away from both Hillary and whoever the GOP elect. He got the national attention necessary to run a mainstream campaign and I hope that's how it ends up going.

if you "kii" when a republican candidate gets elected just because they beat a democrat you don't like, i don't think you really care that seriously

[Mike91]

Originally posted by Bloo

I literally read that Bernie will have a different revolution than Obama simply because it just won't happen, but Hillary supporters aren't making sense?

Yes, Hillary supporters are not making sense. You pick and choose the facts and constantly take every argument make it go in circles, even when your opinion is proven wrong. Bernie is different from Obama because Obama never went as far to the left. He tried to play ball with republicans, which is what's caused nothing to get done. No one was excited about his willingness to play ball with a party that outright said they wouldn't work with him. The base has been unenergized because Obama refused to take advantage of the base he built. He got them out to vote to re-elect him but that was about it. Same thing will happen with Hillary, but even less because she has nowhere near the appeal of Obama.

Originally posted by accelgors

if you "kii" when a republican candidate gets elected just because they beat a democrat you don't like, i don't think you really care that seriously

I'll "kii" because the democrats will choose to vote the candidate they think is the most electable, meanwhile her own damn party doesn't trust her. And then what happens if she gets indicted? The issue might be swept under the rug for now but something is eventually going to happen with it. You really think that's not going to destroy the democratic party to have it's own candidate indicted? Bernie might be a socialist, but studies show that most Americans love socialist policies, they just don't like the term. Thats because most Americans aren't well educated.

It's the Hillary supporters who are going to destroy this election. Bernie has appeal on both sides of the aisle but everyone wants to elect the person who is currently under federal investigation because they think she's the "safe" choice.

[hooky]

I want Trump to lose the Republican nom, claim that the RNC treated him unfairly, and then run as an independent.

Either it would give Bernie the win if he's the Democrat nominee or he would be able to run as an independent to create a four-way race in which hopefully the parties split. That's the only scenario in which Bernie would run. He'd want us to vote for Hillary because of SCOTUS, so he wouldn't run and split the Democrat vote.