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ATRL: Archived: Pokéthread (#1)
Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Relampago.
When will Salamence out speed Garchomp, when will he be useful in a sandstorm, when will be not lose 25% of his health with SR, when will he actually live long enough to get the Moxie boost? 
And not y'all trying it as though SR is some nail in the coffin for Bulkinite. If you don't know the good sis's Forretress, Claydol and Bronzong, you need to educate yourselves. |
+ Starmie. He just can't stop winning.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
You keep beating around Moxie tho. With it Salamence becomes the best sweeper ever  |
Not with Mamoswine/Donphan with Ice Shard around and the countless Scarf Pokes with HP Ice/Ice Beam, he's not.
A problem not so hard to deal with for Choice Band Dragonite.
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Member Since: 11/6/2011
Posts: 4,882
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I can't at you all. Jynx is the original dragon slaying queen! Her power v. Gen 2 Elite 4 >>>>>>>>
She can solo it easily! I need a stat boost for her! Her speed should be higher!
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by Relampago.
When will Salamence out speed Garchomp, when will he be useful in a sandstorm, when will be not lose 25% of his health with SR, when will he actually live long enough to get the Moxie boost?
And not y'all trying it as though SR is some nail in the coffin for Bulkinite. If you don't know the good sis's Forretress, Claydol and Bronzong, you need to educate yourselves. Not to mention the Magic Bouncers Espeon and Xatu. |
Foretress* 
Bronzong doesn't even have rapid spin, looks like you're the one who needs to be educated 
Have you even used Scarfmence? After steel types are gone almost nothing stands in the way of it sweeping 
Not even gonna try to argue that it's better than anything anymore, you guys just need to accept that it's not the useless menace you make it out to be.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 3,218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
You keep beating around Moxie tho. With it Salamence becomes the best sweeper ever |
In what world? 
Salamence gets knocked out by Ice Shard from Donphan, Weavile and Mamoswine. Not to mention the focus scarfs from Alakazam. Salamence isn't taking no hits, sorry.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMIT
Not with Mamoswine/Donphan with Ice Shard around and the countless Scarf Pokes with HP Ice/Ice Beam, he's not.
A problem not so hard to deal with for Choice Band Dragonite. |
How often do you actually see Mamoswine and Donphan? Idk about you but I don't see them hardly at all
Choice Band Dragonite is way worse than Dragon Dance Dragonite anyway, but that's another topic.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 3,218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
Foretress*
Bronzong doesn't even have rapid spin, looks like you're the one who needs to be educated
Have you even used Scarfmence? After steel types are gone almost nothing stands in the way of it sweeping
Not even gonna try to argue that it's better than anything anymore, you guys just need to accept that it's not the useless menace you make it out to be. |
Where did I say Bronzong had Rapid Spin?  The assumptions.
I was saying those Pokemon because they can set up entry hazards and deal with the "spin blocker" you call Gengar.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by Relampago.
In what world?
Salamence gets knocked out by Ice Shard from Donphan, Weavile and Mamoswine. Not to mention the focus scarfs from Alakazam. Salamence isn't taking no hits, sorry. |
Weavile too? I've NEVER seen him in OU and I doubt you've seen him more than 3 times too.
Focus scarfs on Alakazam? What kind of preposterous mess? I have never seen an Alakazam that wasn't sashed and I'd love for you to educate me on why Alakazam is good without a sash or when you've seen one without it
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 5,729
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Quote:
Originally posted by Walk_Away21
I can't at you all. Jynx is the original dragon slaying queen! Her power v. Gen 2 Elite 4 >>>>>>>>
She can solo it easily! I need a stat boost for her! Her speed should be higher!
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Cosign
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by Relampago.
Where did I say Bronzong had Rapid Spin? The assumptions.
I was saying those Pokemon because they can set up entry hazards and deal with the "spin blocker" you call Gengar. |
I never called Gengar a spin blocker? I was referring to the Gengar/Jellicent discussion above since they were ghost types.
Unless I did, but I don't remember doing so nor would I say he's a valid spinblocker
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
How often do you actually see Mamoswine and Donphan? Idk about you but I don't see them hardly at all
Choice Band Dragonite is way worse than Dragon Dance Dragonite anyway, but that's another topic.
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Donphan is actually pretty used. Mamoswine not as much, but it's not like he's Infernape or Dugtrio.
It doesn't matter which set is worse, and that depends anyway.
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Member Since: 8/18/2013
Posts: 3,218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
Weavile too? I've NEVER seen him in OU and I doubt you've seen him more than 3 times too.
Focus scarfs on Alakazam? What kind of preposterous mess? I have never seen an Alakazam that wasn't sashed and I'd love for you to educate me on why Alakazam is good without a sash or when you've seen one without it |
I said scarf, but I'm on mobile and it changed it to scarf. Alakazam's sash prevents a sweep, sorry to say. And Weavile is often seen in OU when people need a fast Ice type, so lets not with that.
People were also saying Gengar is a spinblocker, when its everything but.
It's also too bad Salamence is often killed before it can set up. Dragonite basically gets a free turn to Dragon Dance because of Multiscale.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMIT
Not with Mamoswine/Donphan with Ice Shard around and the countless Scarf Pokes with HP Ice/Ice Beam, he's not.
A problem not so hard to deal with for Choice Band Dragonite. |
Wait. But after Multiscale is knocked out (it's not that damn hard to knock it out like you guys claim) BOTH Donphan and Mamoswine OHKO Dragonite with Ice Shard.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
Foretress*
Bronzong doesn't even have rapid spin, looks like you're the one who needs to be educated
Have you even used Scarfmence? After steel types are gone almost nothing stands in the way of it sweeping
Not even gonna try to argue that it's better than anything anymore, you guys just need to accept that it's not the useless menace you make it out to be. |
No one is saying that. We're just debating on his and Dragonite's (and Garchomp's, apparently) usefulness. 
I agree, he's not even close to useless, otherwise he wouldn't be banned last Gen. I just think he's not that good of a sweeper like you're implying, my opinion. 
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by Relampago.
I said scarf, but I'm on mobile and it changed it to scarf. Alakazam's sash prevents a sweep, sorry to say. And Weavile is often seen in OU when people need a fast Ice type, so lets not with that.
People were also saying Gengar is a spinblocker, when its everything but.
It's also too bad Salamence is often killed before it can set up. Dragonite basically gets a free turn to Dragon Dance because of Multiscale. |
But Scizor is the most used pokemon in all of OU (on PO at least, no charts for Showdown as far as I know.) and ONE bullet punch from it will knock Alakazam right out. Sash Alakazam is the only way to go, majority of OU players agree, and Smogon agrees.
But you and I were both talking about me, not people, right?
Hazards exist... and even if you can't set them up, as I said, Donphan and Mamoswine can OHKO with Shard, so you can just sack whoever you have out and then send them in. I mean, you were arguing that Salamence is worse since those two can OHKO it, so I'll do it back
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
Wait. But after Multiscale is knocked out (it's not that damn hard to knock it out like you guys claim) BOTH Donphan and Mamoswine OHKO Dragonite with Ice Shard.
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Mamoswine I'm sure, does, but Donphan? Really? It OHKO's Dnite with sth like 80-90% HP?
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 6,659
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMIT
Mamoswine I'm sure, does, but Donphan? Really? It OHKO's Dnite with sth like 80-90% HP? |
Dragonite is NOT going to hang on by 80-90% HP unless it resisted the attack. Even with Multiscale
Donphan can, it just depends on how much HP Dragonite had and what the Donphan set is. It can do over half HP.
I'm not going to drag this on further because it's clear no side's opinions will change. Of course they both have their counters but neither are bad imo despite what some may think now
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
Dragonite is NOT going to hang on by 80-90 HP unless it resisted the attack. Even with Multiscale
Donphan can, it just depends on how much HP Dragonite had and what the Donphan set is. It can do over half HP.
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Eh, I guess it all depends really. I don't even know the point in this discussion anymore. 
But I somewhat agree that Donphan is a possible Dnite counter, but it depends on both's HP, same with Mamo, otherwise Dragonite can take both out with ExtremeSpeed.
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Member Since: 8/17/2013
Posts: 20,947
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corsola
I'm not going to drag this on further because it's clear no side's opinions will change. Of course they both have their counters but neither are bad imo despite what some may think now |
I agree! I don't think any of them are bad by any means! They are Dragons after all.
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Member Since: 12/19/2011
Posts: 14,246
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMIT
lol, this has gotten a bit too technical for my taste (probably my fault though). SR also cripples Salamence. And he'll be crying over those Scarf Ice Beam's/Ice Shard's more than Dragonite if his Multiscale is still intact. And good luck killing stuff with that Fire Blast after a Draco Meteor mess.
Dragonite can also take neutral hits, even better than Sala if they're special. DDnite >>> DDmence.
Dnite can also be used and Rain with his Hurricane + Spread Paralyzes, can Salaflop? Oh wait it can't even learn T-Wave, not even Thunder. |
SR does more than cripple Dragonite though  It takes away Multiscale, which is one of the few things Dragonite has over Salamence. So yeah, if you're going to pit Dragonite against Salamence, then it's kind of a nail in the coffin.
And last time I checked we're talking about sweeping here. And the fact is, Sala is a better sweeper than Dragonite, mostly because they're both in an SR-invaded tier. That's the sad thing really, the only thing that keeps Dragonite from winning against Sala is SR. Without it, Weavile and them can OHKO him as well.
They both slay hard, and they're both top threat in OU, it's just that Sala has the slight lead here. Or at least in terms of sweeping.
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