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Fan Base: Archived: One Direction (#1)
Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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Quote:
Originally posted by JungleDisturbia
I'm sure you've heard some songs on the radio where you've thought "why on earth are people buying this?". Music taste simply doesn't transcend into sales and at least when it's taste vs taste it's a level playing field. BOTH sides can think to themselves "well I'm right, so". When someone brings up sales, it takes all the integrity away from the discussion.
I have never, ever understood the logic of "[artist] flopped because it simply wasn't good". There are many people out there who think that "flop" albums are an artist's best work.
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Of course there are, and there will always be been "good" songs that flopped, and "bad" songs that smash.
I am talking in very general terms about music and sales. At the end of the day something motivated the person to press the purchase button. Something motivated the person to stream the song 10 times instead of once. Something motivated them to pick up the album at the store. Sales go to show that a song is good for more people...... it has nothing to do you with whether a song is good for individual like you or I.
My point was that sales are not subjective. Something either sells well, or it doesn't.
(This is of course not taking into consideration promotion. Good promotion can effect sales dramatically, while bad promotion can doom an album.)
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Member Since: 5/4/2011
Posts: 20,807
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Quote:
Originally posted by Waffles_
Of course there are, and there will always be been "good" songs that flopped, and "bad" songs that smash.
I am talking in very general terms about music and sales. At the end of the day something motivated the person to press the purchase button. Something motivated the person to stream the song 10 times instead of once. Something motivated them to pick up the album at the store. Sales go to show that a song is good for more people...... it has nothing to do you with whether a song is good for individual like you or I.
My point was that sales are not subjective. Something either sells well, or it doesn't.
(This is of course not taking into consideration promotion. Good promotion can effect sales dramatically, while bad promotion can doom an album.)
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It does indeed show that more people are interested in a song, although I still don't believe it should be a valid receipt for when talking about a song's quality. I agree with the main point you're making, even though I don't believe that should allow the sales argument. But maybe we have to agree to disagree. 
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Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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Thing is. You NEED non subjective measures in any debate to ground things.
Imagine debating universal vs free market healthcare (off the wall I know) where you are not aloud to use receipts. It would essentially boil down to:
"Healthcare for everyone YAY! Only heartless jerks would want anything else!"
vs
"Socialism is BADDDDD! Free Market is teh winnar!!!!"
You would never get anywhere.
Sales are the one area of discussion in music where you can actually make progress and not just have a merry-go-round of people telling each other that their opinion is right and yours is wrong.
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Member Since: 5/4/2011
Posts: 20,807
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Yes but we're debating music taste, not actual things that ACTUALLY affect your day-to-day living.
If we were debating some super serious topic then of course we would need receipts.
EDIT: I'm just going to go with your last edited sentence because we can use that in the general terms of things and not relate it to this particular discussion from the last page.
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Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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I don't see how that changes anything. It lowers the stakes of the debate.... nothing else.
There is a big difference between discussing YOUR or MY music tastes. In those debates receipts would not be appropriate. However, when discussing whether a song was good/bad in GENERAL terms I think it is an appropriate avenue (though it is not the end all, be all either).
Just because something is less serious doesn't change the way the debate works. Without receipts you could have a 100 page thread on a topic and end it exactly where it started (not uncommon). At that point why waste your time even calling it a debate? What is really is is just a thread where people state their opinion and tell other people that their opinions are wrong.
Its probably just me, but I don't enter a debate if there is no chance of learning anything new or making progress on the topic 
Edit to address your edit: That's silly. We have only had a handful of posts on the matter and the debate has shifted somewhat already.
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Member Since: 5/4/2011
Posts: 20,807
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At the end of the day sales just prove that a particular song clicked with more people. You have said yourself that still doesn't determine whether it makes a song better or not, it's just an extra fact that can be added onto a track.
Like, I see what you're attempting to say. If a debate was purely based on opinions, with nothing to back those opinions up, then the debate would pretty much be baseless. There would be no progression, there wouldn't be any sort of conclusion. Basically what this discussion has become because right now we're basically discussing our opinions on receipt validity.
But I'm just going to give you the crown because with ATRL's painful slowness, there is no way I can be bothered to continue this.
-
On another note, I'm jamming to "Irresistible". 
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 8,605
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Guys. Lets get excited for the awards. 
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Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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What ever happened to the rate?
...or did I miss it?
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Member Since: 3/14/2013
Posts: 19,483
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The hoster hasn't started it yet, actually.
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Member Since: 3/15/2013
Posts: 8,605
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Member Since: 5/7/2012
Posts: 16,235
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My hair looks like my normal avi with Zayn today 
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Member Since: 3/14/2013
Posts: 19,483
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flame
Who is doing it again?
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I'mARudeBoy
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Member Since: 8/4/2012
Posts: 23,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by NaughtyDog
Little Things is trash that keeps their image from maturing and stays clinging to the insecure girl demographic
and dont bring in metacritic when its obvious reviewers didnt even bother with the album for obvious reasons
just 9 reviews for an album should tell you something
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This song is everything....mister..
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Member Since: 2/18/2012
Posts: 25,853
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Quote:
Originally posted by JungleDisturbia
You know I love and adore Legend N, so of course this would be praise.  |
I know.
Quote:
Originally posted by JungleDisturbia
Just the first ones I came across, never doubt the Kings.
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These legends.
Quote:
Originally posted by Waffles_
Even I know that you do not honestly believe this.
Also,
(I digress, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, but rather at the universe at large. I find that people who complain about receipts only do so because they want EVERYTHING to be based on opinion so they can just say "Nuh uh, I am right, you are wrong, so there!" and there is nothing anyone can respond with.)
People who attack others for using sales receipts generally only do so because they DON'T have receipts or a leg to stand on. Sales receipts are pretty much much the only non subjective measure of quality we have when it comes to media. When someone buys a song they generally do it because they like it. If enough people buy a song I don't know of any better objective measure to say that it at least has some sort of quality (even songs like Gangnam Style have their niche.... it would not not sold well if it was not good WITHIN its niche of silly Korean songs).
Flops generally flop because their music is bad. This is ESPECIALLY true of established artists. Unknowns can flop because no one knows who they are and they struggle to get traction. Big names cannot use that excuse.
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What is stopping it happening though? Niall is the most loved behind Harry, and Harry's momentum and reputation is already dying down. Niall is bigger and has a much better chance of being successful than Zayn, Louis and Liam. Seriously, I may praise him to the high heavens but perspectively looking at it, he's one of the biggest members of the band.
That doesn't mean anything though. The amount of people who bought that song enjoyed it, but I didn't enjoy it and I didn't buy it, as did plenty of people. The quantity of people who bought a song doesn't equate to quality. It's like Marry the Night. I never liked it, but it was liked generally in Gaga's fan base and was always seen as one of the best songs on that album. But when it was released as a single it bombed because a lot of people didn't like it. The low sales don't make it a bad song. AS reversed with Because of You. The high sales don't make it a good song. 
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Banned
Member Since: 3/14/2013
Posts: 231
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack!
I know.
These legends.
What is stopping it happening though? Niall is the most loved behind Harry, and Harry's momentum and reputation is already dying down. Niall is bigger and has a much better chance of being successful than Zayn, Louis and Liam. Seriously, I may praise him to the high heavens but perspectively looking at it, he's one of the biggest members of the band.
That doesn't mean anything though. The amount of people who bought that song enjoyed it, but I didn't enjoy it and I didn't buy it, as did plenty of people. The quantity of people who bought a song doesn't equate to quality. It's like Marry the Night. I never liked it, but it was liked generally in Gaga's fan base and was always seen as one of the best songs on that album. But when it was released as a single it bombed because a lot of people didn't like it. The low sales don't make it a bad song. AS reversed with Because of You. The high sales don't make it a good song. |
 At Harry's momentum dying down. Even though I stan for Louis, Harry is obviously the one most of the GP stans for or even knows. He's basically the front man; always in the middle of photoshoots, has the most followers on twitter + instagram, has the most solos, and is the one the majority of people know when they are asked about 1D. Niall is bigger than Louis or Liam or Zayn though.
This whole argument over sales
Good sales mean the GP likes the song and finds it catchy (most of the time), bad sales can mean a number of things including but not limited to the song being "bad". There are loads of good songs that are not commercially viable/catchy or do not get enough exposure, and therefore few sales. Music is subjective, however there are tons of people that hear songs and enjoy them or realize their musical quality but don't buy them because they are not catchy songs.
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Member Since: 12/24/2010
Posts: 37,039
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PUNCH HA!
I finally meet Harry, Liam and Louis 
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Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kyra
This whole argument over sales
Good sales mean the GP likes the song and finds it catchy (most of the time), bad sales can mean a number of things including but not limited to the song being "bad". There are loads of good songs that are not commercially viable/catchy or do not get enough exposure, and therefore few sales. Music is subjective, however there are tons of people that hear songs and enjoy them or realize their musical quality but don't buy them because they are not catchy songs. |
My point was never that sales = quality.
My point was that it was a legitimate metric to be considered. Whereas others were saying that it should not be considered at all.
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Member Since: 2/18/2012
Posts: 25,853
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kyra
At Harry's momentum dying down. Even though I stan for Louis, Harry is obviously the one most of the GP stans for or even knows. He's basically the front man; always in the middle of photoshoots, has the most followers on twitter + instagram, has the most solos, and is the one the majority of people know when they are asked about 1D. Niall is bigger than Louis or Liam or Zayn though. |
I know that Harry is still the front leader, I never said otherwise. There is a difference between stanning and knowing, so it's wrong to make them comparable. He's the most well known, but he's a member of One Direction, I can guarantee that 90% of the GP hate him. He's the front man for the fact that he's the easiest to sell or at least he was at the time of the bands origin. So was Liam too, but (no offence to anyone) but Liam is a bit... boring. He's far too quiet and humble, which I guess makes it hard for the general public to really like him, or for the label to force them to like him. But it's obvious they thought he was as easy to sell as Harry or he wouldn't have got so much attention from the beginning to now. Harry and Liam were the only known and cared about members even during The X Factor days.
I personally do believe, while Harry will be a mega-success outside of 1D, we'll all be surprised as to who shines when those days happen. Zayn will have a cute career crossing over R&B and still attracting those gays and twinks, Liam and Louis will still do 1D like material, or atleast a mature version of it. I can't see them doing anything different. Harry and Niall will go down down that acoustic pop route.
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Member Since: 2/18/2012
Posts: 25,853
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Quote:
Originally posted by Waffles_
My point was never that sales = quality.
My point was that it was a legitimate metric to be considered. Whereas others were saying that it should not be considered at all.
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But, how good a song is, or how well written it is, is still a subjective matter. The X amount of people who bought a song liked it for whatever reason they like it. But saying it sold X amount isn't going to make someone who doesn't like the song or think it's a good song say "oh, well I guess that must make it a good song then". So, in my opinion, it shouldn't be considered at all. Just my opinion but.
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Member Since: 2/6/2012
Posts: 29,767
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack!
But, how good a song is, or how well written it is, is still a subjective matter. The X amount of people who bought a song liked it for whatever reason they like it. But saying it sold X amount isn't going to make someone who doesn't like the song or think it's a good song say "oh, well I guess that must make it a good song then". So, in my opinion, it shouldn't be considered at all. Just my opinion but.
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Those are different discussions though.
Talking about what song YOU or I like is completely subjective to our own personal taste. When you say "I don't like Little Things" sales are completely irrelevant to the discussion.
However, when talking about what song is good or bad in a general sense you have to consider more mainstream views of a song. When someone says "Little Things is bad" they are talking in a general sense. In which case sales are a relevant topic.
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