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Discussion: Has Beyoncé already surpassed Mariah and Whitney?
Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sheena
Thats funny considering her career is far bigger than Whitneys even before her death and at her peak. Try again dumplin.
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Whitney Houston, who had the music world and Hollywood in the palm of her hand at the same time during her peak, was surpassed in that time by Celine Dion?
Whitney Houston, who released 1/4 of the albums Celine Dion did, yet is right up there in the 200-million mark, had a career "far smaller" than Celine Dion?
Celine Dion had a "far bigger career" than Whitney, who had huge success in music, movies AND television?
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Member Since: 10/14/2011
Posts: 3,934
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Yes she has.
The scary thing is that Bey isn't even finished yet. Even if you don't think she's surpassed both of them, you can't deny she's close enough to doing it.
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Member Since: 8/29/2009
Posts: 3,772
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it's funny... this discussion when you think about that the bodyguard era sold an estimated 75 million records worldwide.
some beyoncé fans are very racist.
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Member Since: 6/7/2011
Posts: 10,608
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Mariah & Whitney's peak was based on the impact of an old white man who pushed industry standards on them to cash out on these artists. No offense, but you see how that impacted Whitney (RIP) & Mariah's life.
Beyonce is building her own brand her own way which is more impressive. She is doing something that no one is doing so it is hard to see how her legacy will play out considering she is constantly changing the game.
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Member Since: 1/2/2014
Posts: 2,307
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Partially because of the barriers of Diana Ross? She owed a HUGE amount of those barriers being broken to Diana Ross.
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Partially because Whitney's own contributions have contributed to her immense success.
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Originally posted by swissman
The Supremes were the first black crossover stars.
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They were not.
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Originally posted by swissman
Their image as elegant, soft, graceful black women was entirely different than what was the standard.
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Lena Horne was that before The Supremes.
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Originally posted by swissman
It was historic in that now white covers of black musicians were not as successful as the black original.
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Black artists were having crossover pop success with original recordings before The Supremes. Where are you getting this from?
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Diana as an actress paved the way for Whitney. She was even Oscar-nominated.
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I never said she didn't.
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Originally posted by swissman
There is a clear line in legacy, but each is picking up where the other left off, improving it, adding to it, expanding on it. Whitney did big things too, and Beyoncé as a singer, actress, brand ambassador expanded it by also being the keeper of her own brand in a way that Whitney had not, and in a way that will further inspired young black women in years to come.
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The only thing Beyoncé has expanded on are endorsements, which is something that wasn't afforded to artists like Whitney. Whitney had her own production company and had control over her brand by the 90's. Beyoncé still has not matched her impact, influence or commercial success,, therefore she has not matched anything.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
The point that was made was that they were past their critical peaks when meteoritic started (9 or 14 years into their career). And in Beyoncé's career, she has been continually growing as an artist and is currently about to be in her 20th year in the business and has still managed to make a work of pure artistry.
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The point is that one cannot say Beyoncé is more acclaimed than Mariah and Whitney by mentioning the BEYONCÉ album considering the fact that Mariah and Whitney's entire discography have not been measured using Metacritic. You all are using reviews as a sole measure of "acclaim" when it involves more than that. Beyoncé does not have the same distinction as Whitney or Mariah, that's just fact.[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
I know this is about surpassing. I don't think Beyoncé has done that.
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Member Since: 8/29/2009
Posts: 3,772
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
Mariah & Whitney's peak was based on the impact of an old white man who pushed industry standards on them to cash out on these artists. No offense, but you see how that impacted Whitney (RIP) & Mariah's life.
Beyonce is building her own brand her own way which is more impressive. She is doing something that no one is doing so it is hard to see how her legacy will play out considering she is constantly changing the game.
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yeah, she didn't have anyone who helped her. she literally dropped her self-penned demo on to a record company... oh wait.. no that's mariah.. darn. yet i thought i discovered sth.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
I mean...this is just another way of saying she got the conversation going.
OK.
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That's exactly what I said, yes.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by YoYo
I've always found your posts reasonable, except this time.
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Okay go read Gaga's article where she says she's not a feminist and find new ones where she says she is.
That is just one example of how feminist has been adopted by women as a source of pride, that is a big thing.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
That's exactly what I said, yes.
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So you were just repeating what I said? Why....you know what? Never mind. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.
Quote:
Originally posted by simon
Mariah & Whitney's peak was based on the impact of an old white man who pushed industry standards on them to cash out on these artists. No offense, but you see how that impacted Whitney (RIP) & Mariah's life.
Beyonce is building her own brand her own way which is more impressive. She is doing something that no one is doing so it is hard to see how her legacy will play out considering she is constantly changing the game.
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This makes NO sense.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTNET.
Partially because Whitney's own contributions have contributed to her immense success.
They were not.
Lena Horne was that before The Supremes.
Black artists were having crossover pop success with original recordings before The Supremes. Where are you getting this from?
I never said she didn't.
The only thing Beyoncé has expanded on are endorsements, which is something that wasn't afforded to artists like Whitney. Whitney had her own production company and had control over her brand by the 90's. Beyoncé still has not matched her impact, influence or commercial success,, therefore she has not matched anything.
The point is that one cannot say Beyoncé is more acclaimed than Mariah and Whitney by mentioning the BEYONCÉ album considering the fact that Mariah and Whitney's entire discography have not been measured using Metacritic. You all are using reviews as a sole measure of "acclaim" when it involves more than that. Beyoncé does not have the same distinction as Whitney or Mariah, that's just fact.
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[/QUOTE]
This trend of commenting every little sentence and nitpicking it is getting out of hand.
Lena Horne hardly crossed over in the way the Supremes did. And if she did, that doesn't change the point which is that Whitney owned more than just a little to Diana. And I know that other artists crossed over but not with the huge fame and impact of the Supremes, as has been said they were second only to the Beatles. They were HUGE in a way black artists had not been.
Beyoncé has endorsements, yes, but she also has a huge personal brand. The best selling celebrity perfume, as one example. The others are her massive deal for IVYPARK.
Beyoncé has matched Whitney for her generation 100%.
And ok I get the point about acclaim but then show which Whitney and Mariah albums had such universal acclaim then. We can talk about acclaim without metacritic.
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Member Since: 6/7/2011
Posts: 10,608
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Quote:
Originally posted by stevyy
yeah, she didn't have anyone who helped her. she literally dropped her self-penned demo on to a record company... oh wait.. no that's mariah.. darn. yet i thought i discovered sth.
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I am not saying that. People are comparing Beyonce current stats to the Bodyguyard & Music Box when it is obvious Beyonce is not even playing to those industry standards anymore.
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Member Since: 12/21/2011
Posts: 12,474
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She passed Mariah long time ago, no one knows her here.
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
I am not saying that. People are comparing Beyonce current stats to the Bodyguyard & Music Box when it is obvious Beyonce is not even playing to those industry standards anymore.
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"Industry standards". What are you going on about? What industry standard was Whitney playing to with The "Bodyguyard"? They were in no way expecting it to sell what it did. Same with Mariah and Music Box. "Industry standards" is clearly one of those terms stans use to sound knowledgeable.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Lena Horne hardly crossed over in the way the Supremes did. And if she did, that doesn't change the point which is that Whitney owned more than just a little to Diana. And I know that other artists crossed over but not with the huge fame and impact of the Supremes, as has been said they were second only to the Beatles. They were HUGE in a way black artists had not been.
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Lena was about as crossover as you could get in her heyday. Diana and The Supremes' success was down to barriers Lena had broken down in addition to the ever-changing times. Motown was the top popular music sound at that time.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Beyoncé has endorsements, yes, but she also has a huge personal brand. The best selling celebrity perfume, as one example. The others are her massive deal for IVYPARK.
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And her personal brand is the result of her music...success....which would not have been there without people like...WHITNEY. There's a reason why Beyonce said "Whitney is our queen and provided a blueprint for us all".
And all you have named are successful Beyonce endeavors. They haven't shaped music or culture in any significant way.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
Beyoncé has matched Whitney for her generation 100%.
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Really? Because her success in Hollywood says different. Whitney was the main draw in her first three movies (and even Sparkle), had Hollywood constantly knocking at her door with scripts upon scripts, most of which she rejected and were then passed on to other black actresses.
Whitney "matched" her predecessors because she furthered what they did. Beyonce has not furthered what Whitney has done. So yes, she is the "Whitney" of her time in terms of her being the pre-eminent diva of her generation, but she has not matched her.
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Member Since: 1/1/2014
Posts: 15,535
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Beyonce will never have songs as big as Whitney’s or Mariah’s, they are the VOICES.. huge, instantly recognizable, worldwide hits that transcend generations. The Beyhive wishes that she could surpass these two legends.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
Lena was about as crossover as you could get in her heyday. Diana and The Supremes' success was down to barriers Lena had broken down in addition to the ever-changing times. Motown was the top popular music sound at that time.
And her personal brand is the result of her music...success....which would not have been there without people like...WHITNEY. There's a reason why Beyonce said "Whitney is our queen and provided a blueprint for us all".
And all you have named are successful Beyonce endeavors. They haven't shaped music or culture in any significant way.
Really? Because her success in Hollywood says different. Whitney was the main draw in her first three movies (and even Sparkle), had Hollywood constantly knocking at her door with scripts upon scripts, most of which she rejected and were then passed on to other black actresses.
Whitney "matched" her predecessors because she furthered what they did. Beyonce has not furthered what Whitney has done. So yes, she is the "Whitney" of her time in terms of her being the pre-eminent diva of her generation, but she has not matched her.
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What's the point with this Lena bit? It still underscores the point that I'm making. The legacy Whitney gave Beyoncé as a black woman is also largely thanks to other women too.
And AGAIN Beyoncé doesn't need to have done what Whitney did to match her. Beyoncé is already matching her in authorship. She is an auteur at this point.
And even still, how has Beyoncé not furthered what Whitney did when she has taken it all to the next level from both an artistic and brand perspective? So Whitney set up Beyoncé to be able to do what she did and Beyoncé did it and added even more to what is possible for a black woman helming her career. This is exactly what you're asking of her. I'm not sure why you don't see it in front of your eyes.
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Member Since: 3/27/2012
Posts: 18,963
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Fenty
Beyonce will never have songs as big as Whitney’s or Mariah’s, they are the VOICES.. huge, instantly recognizable, worldwide hits that transcend generations. The Beyhive wishes that she could surpass these two legends.
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I mean, if it's not Beyoncé it's no one else so...
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Member Since: 5/27/2016
Posts: 2,591
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the report being cleared
OT: the answer still NO! this isn't even signaling out beyonce. Nobody will reach the heights the legends before them achieved
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Member Since: 3/11/2011
Posts: 1,716
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
What's the point with this Lena bit? It still underscores the point that I'm making. The legacy Whitney gave Beyoncé as a black woman is also largely thanks to other women too.
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Which is exactly what I've been saying...why do you keep on repeating things that have already been said?
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
And AGAIN Beyoncé doesn't need to have done what Whitney did to match her. Beyoncé is already matching her in authorship. She is an auteur at this point.
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You seem to be confusing me pointing out that Beyonce hasn't had the same kind of impact on culture and music as Whitney with me requiring them to do similar things. No. They're different artists and different women living in different times. I'm saying that things Beyonce HAS done have in no way equaled what Whitney did.
Quote:
Originally posted by swissman
And even still, how has Beyoncé not further what Whitney did when she has taken it all to the next level from both an artistic and brand perspective? So Whitney set up Beyoncé to be able to do what she did and Beyoncé did it and added even more to what is possible for a black woman helming her career. This is exactly what you're asking of her. I'm not sure why you don't see it in front of your eyes.
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Artistic and brand perspective....
So Beyonce took Whitney's style of singing and music to the next level? Really?
So Beyonce's brand power has resulted in other black female artists getting the same opportunities to expand their careers outside of music? Because that's the only way she'd be "furthering" what Whitney's doing.
She is continuing to walk on the same path. She's not digging into the ground to fix the cracks and make the path wider. She is, however, creating a little road for herself within the overall path. And that is very commendable.
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Member Since: 8/19/2013
Posts: 5,048
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Please stop arguing with that one Janet Stan all he does is nitpick everything you post so that you end up going round and round in circles .The best thing is state your views and leave him with his already made up mind because nothing you'll say will change his mind he is hell bent on discrediting Bey.I never get why Janet Stans are always pressed whenever Bey is complimented, it's like they are scared that Bey will overshadow their fave, I remember when they all swore that Bey will never get to Janet's level when it comes to touring, now that she has surpassed her, tour receipts are now regarded as irrelevant. They are just pressed pure and simple.
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Member Since: 4/29/2011
Posts: 6,884
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Singer
Yes she has.
The scary thing is that Bey isn't even finished yet. Even if you don't think she's surpassed both of them, you can't deny she's close enough to doing it.
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You all have to stop this. Age does not guarantee future success. There was a point where it appeared all the greats of yesteryear were unstoppable. But lo and behold. There will come a point where Beyonce just "doesn't have it anymore". It happens to every artist. If it can happen to someone like Stevie Wonder, it can happen to Beyonce.
A lot of you are under the assumption that because Beyonce's brand is multifaceted that there's a level of equivalence with those who preceded her. Understated that these platforms, ventures, avenues, etc. are just successful rather than instrumental in altering the course of popular culture in respect to music. This is what happens when stans are driven by entities like tweet records and Vevo views. They are nothing more than quantified measurements of popularity. Clearly all these things happened 20 and 30 years ago. The only difference is today we can measure it. Social media stats do not provide a leverage for popularity, which has really distorted views of popularity anyway.
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