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Discussion: U.S. Election 2016: Primary Season
Member Since: 11/28/2011
Posts: 27,495
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Quote:
Originally posted by RatedG²
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No they don't. Bernie is still more electable up against Trump compared to Hilary by a pretty large margin actually 
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Member Since: 8/3/2010
Posts: 71,871
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Quote:
Originally posted by Javan
No they don't. Bernie is still more electable up against Trump compared to Hilary by a pretty large margin actually |
As you said Bernie is winning a matchup against Trump
Hillary as well. So yes, both are winning a matchup against the current top polling GOP candidate
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adonis
Bernie Sanders performs better when put up against Republican alternatives.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Javan
No they don't. Bernie is still more electable up against Trump compared to Hilary by a pretty large margin actually |
Those polls aren't good sources to actually predict the outcome of the general election. Republicans have been going after Hillary before she even announced her candidacy. They're ignoring Sanders for the time being. Not saying Bernie doesn't have a chance at all, but those polls mean literally nothing overall.
And about Hillary losing Iowa, while it would suck, Bill Clinton lost Iowa and New Hampshire in 1992 and we all know how that ended.
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Member Since: 8/3/2010
Posts: 71,871
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
Those polls aren't good sources to actually predict the outcome of the general election. Republicans have been going after Hillary before she even announced her candidacy. They're ignoring Sanders for the time being. Not saying Bernie doesn't have a chance at all, but those polls mean literally nothing overall.
And about Hillary losing Iowa, while it would suck, Bill Clinton lost Iowa and New Hampshire in 1992 and we all know how that ended.
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wait I just checked it's true  . So it looks like you can lose those first two states and win in the end. Actually Bill lost 11 of the first 12 states and still won the democratic primary
But I still have faith Clinton can pull off a close win in Iowa (and hoping for another possible upset in NH but doesn't look likely)
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 1,808
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Yeah, as some people have pointed out, Bernie has not been substantially attacked by the GOP like Hillary has.
It is something that could potentially worry me since people can be stupid, and I do worry that certain people will completely shut down upon hearing the word socialist.
With that said, I do still think he is electable.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 1,808
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Quote:
Originally posted by RatedG²
wait I just checked it's true . So it looks like you can lose those first two states and win in the end. Actually Bill lost 11 of the first 12 states and still won the democratic primary
But I still have faith Clinton can pull off a close win in Iowa (and hoping for another possible upset in NH but doesn't look likely) |
Hillary's not getting New Hampshire. Bernie has it all but locked up.
She needs to focus on Iowa.
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Member Since: 8/3/2010
Posts: 71,871
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team_Avatar
Hillary's not getting New Hampshire. Bernie has it all but locked up.
She needs to focus on Iowa.
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Replying to your last one, Bernie is electable. Not sure who said he wasn't but as long as he explains himself people won't just say no after they hear "socialist"
But yeah he's pulling away in New Hampshire, like it's not even close at this point. But if she keeps close she'll snag a few delegates. The one thing that makes me think she should focus more on Iowa is that Iowa has more delegates.
If she loses to Bernie both times 
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 2/5/2014
Posts: 1,808
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Quote:
Originally posted by RatedG²
Replying to your last one, Bernie is electable. Not sure who said he wasn't but as long as he explains himself people won't just say no after they hear "socialist"
But yeah he's pulling away in New Hampshire, like it's not even close at this point. But if she keeps close she'll snag a few delegates. The one thing that makes me think she should focus more on Iowa is that Iowa has more delegates.
If she loses to Bernie both times
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That wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. Just that it is a somewhat valid concern (and I say this as a huge Bernie supporter) because we haven't had a candidate like him in a very long time.
I'd like to think that people could be that level headed when they hear him, but I feel like many Americans have a very narrow perception of socialism (basically that it = communism) and they won't be open minded enough to be proven otherwise.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team_Avatar
That wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. Just that it is a somewhat valid concern (and I say this as a huge Bernie supporter) because we haven't had a candidate like him in a very long time.
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That's definitely going to be an attacking point for Republicans if Bernie gets the nomination. Republicans like to try to paint any Democrat as a communist... But, Bernie as a self-identifying socialist (enough with "democratic socialist," that term was made just to distinguish socialist from the Marxist interpretation of socialism which isn't true socialism) is going to have a much harder time debunking those claims.
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I'd like to think that people could be that level headed when they hear him, but I feel like many Americans have a very narrow perception of socialism (basically that it = communism) and they won't be open minded enough to be proven otherwise.
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While socialism =/= communism, it is essentially a less extreme form of it. It's an economic system that's hard to pull off well in a large country like the US. The issue with Bernie is that I don't think he believes in full out socialism for the US. He just wants to pull out more socialist ideas and implement them in the US. However, those ideas are ambitious and raise eyebrows because he hasn't spoken too much about implementation and has sometimes wavered and stumbled through some explanations (particularly who is going to be taxed to accomplish these goals).
I agree that I would like to see people have an open-mind, but socialism is something many people just don't like. I'm personally not for it and overall don't have much of an issue with capitalism. I'm from a middle class family. But, I just don't care for the idea of socialism. Just my opinion.
Anyway, this upcoming democratic debate is going to be... interesting. Hillary is probably going to be coming for blood in this one. I would love it if Martin just wasn't there, tbh. He's such an annoying distraction.
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Member Since: 8/7/2015
Posts: 23,857
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I'm so glad Bernie is polling decent poll numbers (even though Clinton might snatch the undecided voters). It'll bring her back to Earth and both candidates can battle it out on a more even ground.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 11,976
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Bernie isn't a good debater. He won't win against the charismatic Trump, nor will he win against the charismatic Hillary. He didn't even attack Clinton on one of her biggest faults - her e-mails.
Approximately a third of voters in the U.S. are more middle-of-the-road than anything. Anyone can see that a socialist like Bernie will easily alienate that margin and swing the vote in the favor of the Republicans.
Luckily, Bernie will not win the nomination, so I won't worry about that.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by St. Charles
Bernie isn't a good debater. He won't win against the charismatic Trump, nor will he win against the charismatic Hillary. He didn't even attack Clinton on one of her biggest faults - her e-mails.
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I agree with the bolded. Bernie has a bad habit of getting flustered during debates rather than staying level-headed and calm. Further, he also tends to spin an answer into his main generic points of his campaign such as Wall Street, campaign finance reform, and the middle class. He did this in the last debate when asked a foreign policy question by essentially saying, "Sure, Americans are worried about ISIS but they're more worried about these domestic issues..." and then goes into a speech anyone who's heard him talk has heard before.
But, Bernie's biggest strength is that he comes off as compassionate, caring, and sincere. And Hillary tends to struggle more with that (I'm a HUGE Hillary fan, btw). But, that's mainly why he's gotten as far as he does. People think he cares more than Hillary, which means people think he cares more than Trump if it gets to that. I wouldn't entirely count him out, especially as the race becomes a lot closer between the two of them (seriously, why is Martin even still in the race?). But, hopefully Hillary wins the nomination. I have faith.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 11,976
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
I agree with the bolded. Bernie has a bad habit of getting flustered during debates rather than staying level-headed and calm. Further, he also tends to spin an answer into his main generic points of his campaign such as Wall Street, campaign finance reform, and the middle class. He did this in the last debate when asked a foreign policy question by essentially saying, "Sure, Americans are worried about ISIS but they're more worried about these domestic issues..." and then goes into a speech anyone who's heard him talk has heard before.
But, Bernie's biggest strength is that he comes off as compassionate, caring, and sincere. And Hillary tends to struggle more with that (I'm a HUGE Hillary fan, btw). But, that's mainly why he's gotten as far as he does. People think he cares more than Hillary, which means people think he cares more than Trump if it gets to that. I wouldn't entirely count him out, especially as the race becomes a lot closer between the two of them (seriously, why is Martin even still in the race?). But, hopefully Hillary wins the nomination. I have faith.
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I agree so much with this bolded part. And I understand about Bernie being seen as compassionate. But once the actual debate comes around, and we start talking about implementation (this far, Bernie's plans are just theoretical, not realistic), people will not want that. It's odd how so many want the things that Bernie is talking about but don't understand what it'll do to their paycheck. Once they figure that latter part out, (I have faith that they will sooner or later) they honestly just won't really be up for the "burn" anymore.
A lot of those on CNN, including people in the Republican party, don't pay much attention to Bernie. Even though it seems close, they pay him dust because they know what is to come.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by St. Charles
I agree so much with this bolded part. And I understand about Bernie being seen as compassionate. But once the actual debate comes around, and we start talking about implementation (this far, Bernie's plans are just theoretical, not realistic), people will not want that. It's odd how so many want the things that Bernie is talking about but don't understand what it'll do to their paycheck. Once they figure that latter part out, (I have faith that they will sooner or later) they honestly just won't really be up for the "burn" anymore.
A lot of those on CNN, including people in the Republican party, don't pay much attention to Bernie. Even though it seems close, they pay him dust because they know what is to come.
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I agree on that as well. Bernie's implementation is the issue. Idealistically, he's the best candidate, by far. No questions asked. Realistically? Not so much. And it's not in that conceited way that a ton of Bernie fans interpret that statement to always be riddled with. But—for instance—in the latest debate, when asked about how he would accomplish a certain promise he has made in his campaign if he faced resistance (I can't remember the issue off the top of my head), he simply said, "I will MAKE it happen!" Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it doesn't work like that. Bernie has been hinting at his implementation policy from the approach of someone in legislation that is writing new laws into place. If he were to try that, our entirely Republican Congress would shut it down and that would be the end of it. The president isn't this entirely powerful being that can make anything in the US happen. Checks & Balances keep that from taking place. He would be in charge of the executive branch and I don't see how he would be equipped to head that portion of our government.
I have even less faith in his ability to serve as commander in chief while there are so many succinctly important foreign issues that have to be dealt with. Bernie showed himself to be entirely incapable of really even discussing that issue in decent detail, let alone be the one to actually deal with that.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 11,976
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
I agree on that as well. Bernie's implementation is the issue. Idealistically, he's the best candidate, by far. No questions asked. Realistically? Not so much. And it's not in that conceited way that a ton of Bernie fans interpret that statement to always be riddled with. But—for instance—in the latest debate, when asked about how he would accomplish a certain promise he has made in his campaign if he faced resistance (I can't remember the issue off the top of my head), he simply said, "I will MAKE it happen!" Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it doesn't work like that. Bernie has been hinting at his implementation policy from the approach of someone in legislation that is writing new laws into place. If he were to try that, our entirely Republican Congress would shut it down and that would be the end of it. The president isn't this entirely powerful being that can make anything in the US happen. Checks & Balances keep that from taking place. He would be in charge of the executive branch and I don't see how he would be equipped to head that portion of our government.
I have even less faith in his ability to serve as commander in chief while there are so many succinctly important foreign issues that have to be dealt with. Bernie showed himself to be entirely incapable of really even discussing that issue in decent detail, let alone be the one to actually deal with that.
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I agree. Bernie falters also in his foreign policy. He seems not to be too interested in anything to do with ISIS. Which is fine, but he needs to be able to handle certain situations as they come. Call Hillary cold, ruthless, or callous, but I'd quicker trust her as a commander in chief than someone like Bernie or Trump.
And I know, right? If OBAMACARE, which is not nearly as far to the left as ANY of Bernie's plans (if I recall correctly, Bernie said that Obama didn't go far enough with it?  ) could barely make it through Congress, then what makes anyone on earth think that Bernie may actually be able to get something done while in office. Say, he does get elected. He'll be a one-term president and lose favor among those who feel like his promises were broken (even though it won't be from lack of effort from Bernie, but just by reality checks), which will then put a republican in office for the next 8 years.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by St. Charles
I agree. Bernie falters also in his foreign policy. He seems not to be too interested in anything to do with ISIS. Which is fine, but he needs to be able to handle certain situations as they come. Call Hillary cold, ruthless, or callous, but I'd quicker trust her as a commander in chief than someone like Bernie or Trump.
And I know, right? If OBAMACARE, which is not nearly as far to the left as ANY of Bernie's plans (if I recall correctly, Bernie said that Obama didn't go far enough with it? ) could barely make it through Congress, then what make anyone on earth think that Bernie may actually be able to get something done while in office. Say, he does get elected. He'll be a one-term president and lose favor among those who feel like his promises were broken (even though it won't be from lack of effort from Bernie, but just by reality checks), which will then put a republican in office for the next 8 years. |
Definitely. Honestly, I feel like you have to have some firm of ruthlessness to yourself if you're in a position as the president. It's not a fun, cheery, happy job. It requires focus and drive and a sense to quite frankly not care how people perceive you.
Exactly. Further, Bernie simply does not have the political accomplishments under his belt to even go about taking those ambitious goals on. Also, I get kind of annoyed with his fans that act like he's this perfectly moral and honest politician... I have no negative feelings towards him (only his obnoxious fans), but he's a politician and is not as different as any other politician. He has flipped on issues (he voted against Iraq, but then supported funding bombing of it a year later). He does political things that are convenient for him (he officially registered as Democrat in 2015 so he would eligible to be voted for). Also, he was not pro-same-sex marriage early on. He just never made an official stance on it and would avoid discussing the issue before it became more popular.
I just feel like a lot of his character has been overestimated to make him seem like the Jesus figure of politics.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 11,976
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
Definitely. Honestly, I feel like you have to have some firm of ruthlessness to yourself if you're in a position as the president. It's not a fun, cheery, happy job. It requires focus and drive and a sense to quite frankly not care how people perceive you.
Exactly. Further, Bernie simply does not have the political accomplishments under his belt to even go about taking those ambitious goals on. Also, I get kind of annoyed with his fans that act like he's this perfectly moral and honest politician... I have no negative feelings towards him (only his obnoxious fans), but he's a politician and is not as different as any other politician. He has flipped on issues (he voted against Iraq, but then supported funding bombing of it a year later). He does political things that are convenient for him (he officially registered as Democrat in 2015 so he would eligible to be voted for). Also, he was not pro-same-sex marriage early on. He just never made an official stance on it and would avoid discussing the issue before it became more popular.
I just feel like a lot of his character has been overestimated to make him seem like the Jesus figure of politics.
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Oh, yes. Absolutely. It's ridiculous how many people (mostly on tumblr) go on about how "Bernie is just a cute old man trying to fix the country and i think we should let him!!" and it's kind of annoying. The man has a great heart, and may have decent character, but his goals (although they mean well) are just too far out there for our time.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by St. Charles
Oh, yes. Absolutely. It's ridiculous how many people (mostly on tumblr) go on about how "Bernie is just a cute old man trying to fix the country and i think we should let him!!" and it's kind of annoying. The man has a great heart, and may have decent character, but his goals (although they mean well) are just too far out there for our time.
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I agree. I see so much of that on even Facebook, it's annoying. I like Bernie, I just strongly disagree with portions of his proposed policies. Looking forward to the debate, and I'm praying Martin ends up just being absent.
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ATRL Contributor
Member Since: 1/3/2014
Posts: 11,976
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloo
I agree. I see so much of that on even Facebook, it's annoying. I like Bernie, I just strongly disagree with portions of his proposed policies. Looking forward to the debate, and I'm praying Martin ends up just being absent.
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In the December debate, I cackled at the way he tried to come for Bernie and Hillary at the same time.  Like, come on O'Malley. Give it up.
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Member Since: 5/12/2012
Posts: 7,989
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Quote:
Originally posted by St. Charles
In the December debate, I cackled at the way he tried to come for Bernie and Hillary at the same time. Like, come on O'Malley. Give it up. |
I was DYING. I love how he got booed when he made the ageist remark about how he's from a different generation so he'll have a better solution... 
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