I vote Janet. While both are legendary Mariah really didn't break boundaries or do anything iconic. She just made good music and had a beautiful voice. Not knocking her success. She has sold more than Janet, but Janet's influence is seen more heavier to me in todays pop artist.
Janet did the Hip Hop/RnB before Mariah
Janet helped in the revolution of music video
Janet raised the stakes for pop performing
Janet helped in revolutionizing dance
Janet helped in crossing over of RnB to mainstream crossover
etc. etc.
Mimi didn't need her brothers last name to make a name for herself for God sake!
Janet didn't use her last name to make a name for herself and actually didn't want to be known as a jackson.
And if anyone in the family could use the last name then wouldn't all of them been just as famous as Janet and MJ?.
Janet worked her ass off to bring good music and performances cause if she didn't she wouldn't be where she is now.
The last name would have hindered her not help her cause MJ was all that everyone cared about until Janet.
I vote Janet. While both are legendary Mariah really didn't break boundaries or do anything iconic. She just made good music and had a beautiful voice. Not knocking her success. She has sold more than Janet, but Janet's influence is seen more heavier to me in todays pop artist.
Janet did the Hip Hop/RnB before Mariah
Janet helped in the revolution of music video
Janet raised the stakes for pop performing
Janet helped in revolutionizing dance
Janet helped in crossing over of RnB to mainstream crossover
etc. etc.
Mariah isn't credited with the hip hop/r&b fusion. Or any fusion really.
She's credited with being the first pure pop star to incorporate a rap verse on a pure pop track. Cue Katy Perry, "California Gurls".
Overall though, I feel like you're saying, dancing > singing, which shouldn't be the case. I could also say...
Mariah did the pop/hip hop before her peers.
Mariah helped revolutionize singing technique.
Mariah innovated melisma.
Mariah raised the stakes for pop vocal performances. Setting the bar for notes stretched longerrr, and hIGHer.
See VoL/Emotions 1990/1991 > IWALY 1992 > Unbreak My Heart 96 > MHWGO 1997
Mariah isn't credited with the hip hop/r&b fusion. Or any fusion really.
She's credited with being the first pure pop star to incorporate a rap verse on a pure pop track. Cue Katy Perry, "California Gurls".
Overall though, I feel like you're saying, dancing > singing, which shouldn't be the case. I could also say...
Mariah did the pop/hip hop before her peers.
Mariah helped revolutionize singing technique.
Mariah innovated melisma.
Mariah raised the stakes for pop vocal performances. Setting the bar for notes stretched longerrr, and hIGHer.
See VoL/Emotions 1990/1991 > IWALY 1992 > Unbreak My Heart 96 > MHWGO 1997
etc, etc
Don't understand that, Michael Janet and Whitney were doing this before her. Unless there's something else Mimi added to it.
Don't understand that, Michael Janet and Whitney were doing this before her. Unless there's something else Mimi added to it.
Like chimier previously said, it wasn't that Mariah was the first artist to mix Pop songs with Hip-Hop it was that she was a POP DIVA who was infusing her sound/image with Hip-Hop. That's what made it different and that is where her influence lies today.
I say that they both have the same impact, but two different kinds of impact. I'll go into detail later but I'm tired
Mariah isn't credited with the hip hop/r&b fusion. Or any fusion really.
She's credited with being the first pure pop star to incorporate a rap verse on a pure pop track. Cue Katy Perry, "California Gurls".
Overall though, I feel like you're saying, dancing > singing, which shouldn't be the case. I could also say...
Mariah did the pop/hip hop before her peers.
Mariah helped revolutionize singing technique.
Mariah innovated melisma.
Mariah raised the stakes for pop vocal performances. Setting the bar for notes stretched longerrr, and hIGHer.
See VoL/Emotions 1990/1991 > IWALY 1992 > Unbreak My Heart 96 > MHWGO 1997
etc, etc
Are you saying VOL is the reason for IWALY, UBH and MHWGO?
And she didn't "innovate" melisma. That doesn't even make sense. Intricate melismatic singing, simple melismatic singing and everything in-between existed in popular music before Mariah.
Like chimier previously said, it wasn't that Mariah was the first artist to mix Pop songs with Hip-Hop it was that she was a POP DIVA who was infusing her sound/image with Hip-Hop. That's what made it different and that is where her influence lies today.
I say that they both have the same impact, but two different kinds of impact. I'll go into detail later but I'm tired
The other 3 are just as "pop" as Mariah though, who already had R&B traits in her music by that time...Oh well lol
The other 3 are just as "pop" as Mariah though, who already had R&B traits in her music by that time...Oh well lol
When Whitney and Janet did it, it was with R&B songs. Mariah did it with a pop song. And Janet's image was the edgy pop/R&B performer. She was never that of a "pop diva" a la Mariah or Whitney.
Are you saying VOL is the reason for IWALY, UBH and MHWGO?
And she didn't "innovate" melisma. That doesn't even make sense. Intricate melismatic singing, simple melismatic singing and everything in-between existed in popular music before Mariah.
VoL/Emotions set the trend for notes stretched longer and belted higher, you absolutely cannot argue with that fact. We didn't just magically go from Madonna and Cyndi topping the charts with Into The Groove's and Girl's Just Wanna Have Fun's to the big voiced trend of the 90s out of nowehere (VoL and Emotions came right at the very beginning the decade, in 90 and 91.). You could make an argument for Whitney's cover of "The Greatest Love of All", but "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" happened right after in 87 and absolutely overshadowed it.
_
You know, you and I go through this every single time.
Innovate =/= create.
Get it through your head Chimier.
Quote:
Originally posted by tcweh
The other 3 are just as "pop" as Mariah though, who already had R&B traits in her music by that time...Oh well lol
Quote:
Originally posted by Chimier
When Whitney and Janet did it, it was with R&B songs. Mariah did it with a pop song. And Janet's image was the edgy pop/R&B performer. She was never that of a "pop diva" a la Mariah or Whitney.
VoL/Emotions set the trend for notes stretched longer and belted higher, you absolutely cannot argue with that fact. We didn't just magically go from Madonna and Cyndi topping the charts with Into The Groove's and Girl's Just Wanna Have Fun's to the big voiced trend of the 90s. You could make an argument for Whitney's cover of "The Greatest Love of All", but "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" happened right after in 87 and absolutely overshadowed it.
_
You know, you and I go through this every single time.
Innovate =/= create.
Get it through your head Chimier.
You can go way back before GLOA. Notes belted higher go to the days of Aretha, who was belting above the staff (higher than Mariah was in her own songs). Patti, Chaka, and even singers before Aretha like Marion Williams were belting above the staff. Long notes were done by Streisand, Minnie Riperton etc.
However, the big-voiced trend of the 90s started with Whitney back in the 80s. Whitney Houston revitalized the pop power ballad and the school of big-voiced grand singing. Around the time SAMLFY topped the charts, it was a surprise to many people because songs like that weren't topping the charts.
Quote:
"Saving All My Love for You, Whitney Houston - What a magnificent piece of music, and what a shock to find it in the upper reaches of the pop chart. Not only does Houston's voice overpower all the current female competition, but this song (with lyrics by Gerry Goffin) sounds more like a jazz standard than a disposable pop ballad"- Don't adjust the radio: It's the music that's bad, RICK SHEFCHIK, Houston Chronicle: Oct 4, 1985. pg. 9
Whitney Houston's school of singing and musical blueprint is what the diva and vocal music of the late 80s and 90s were molded after. You're right. We didn't just magically go from GJWHF/ITG to big voiced 90s music. There's 5 years between Into the Groove and VOL. And Whitney Houston was there at the time of the former, already doing the big ballads and vocals.
And IWDWS did not overshadow GLOA. "Selling more" and "overshadowing" are not the same thing. Both songs represented the blueprint Whitney laid out: sweeping power ballads and virtuosic uptempos.
Did I say anything about "innovating=creating" in my comment? No. Get that through your head. I said "innovating" melisma doesn't make sense seeing as how there was nothing she could've added to it, as all forms of melisma were there before her.
It's quite difficult to compare two acts who are polar opposite in the medium used to create their legacy.
But with that said, based on a non-ATRL definition of "impact", and all stanning aside, I'll go with Janet. Impact and iconography typically go hand in hand. To this day, people are still saying "Ms Jackson if you're nasty!" or some variation of it. I've seen, or heard if you will, it used in addressing Janet, or just in general. There are still recreations of her iconic 1993 Rolling Stone cover, and of course the military RN1814 garb will forever be classic.
Also, Mariah's Hip-Pop fusion is not impact. That's influence. Learn the difference between the two.
You can go way back before GLOA. Notes belted higher go to the days of Aretha, who was belting above the staff (higher than Mariah was in her own songs). Patti, Chaka, and even singers before Aretha like Marion Williams were belting above the staff. Long notes were done by Streisand, Minnie Riperton etc.
However, the big-voiced trend of the 90s started with Whitney back in the 80s. Whitney Houston revitalized the pop power ballad and the school of big-voiced grand singing. Around the time SAMLFY topped the charts, it was a surprise to many people because songs like that weren't topping the charts.
Whitney Houston's school of singing and musical blueprint is what the diva and vocal music of the late 80s and 90s were molded after. You're right. We didn't just magically go from GJWHF/ITG to big voiced 90s music. There's 5 years between Into the Groove and VOL. And Whitney Houston was there at the time of the former, already doing the big ballads and vocals.
And IWDWS did not overshadow GLOA. "Selling more" and "overshadowing" are not the same thing. Both songs represented the blueprint Whitney laid out: sweeping power ballads and virtuosic uptempos.
Did I say anything about "innovating=creating" in my comment? No. Get that through your head. I said "innovating" melisma doesn't make sense seeing as how there was nothing she could've added to it, as all forms of melisma were there before her.
Once again, you are confusing innovate with create. To innovate means to make changes in something already established. Mariah's style is the variant from the other women you listed. Rococo melisma is the variant.
I never said x, y, and z didn't hold long notes, I said Mariah set the trend in 1990/91 with notes belted even higher, which is undeniably true, seeing as not only does she hold the record for longest note ever recorded by a pop singer, but also HIGHEST note ever recorded. Are you actually going to argue range, RANGE, of all things with me?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that I Wanna Dance With Somebody overshadowed SAMLFY, even to this day it is much more celebrated and remembered, it was the biggest song of 87. Right now, I could list every Whitney single from the 80s. None of them sound like VoL or Emotions. Mariah made melismatic singing THEE affliction in pop music. You couldn't escape it, she made it necessary, if you were going to do a pop ballad it had to be a frenzy. I mean, there's a reason why critics call Vision of Love, the Magna Carta of melisma and not any of Whitney's 80s singles, or Aretha's singles, or Minnie's singles.
Why is that such a bad thing to admit? Why is it that every time I say Mariah did this, you or someone else has to run in and say, well Whitney dipped in it first? This thread isn't even about Whitney. No. After Whitney covered "Saving All My Love For You" nothing changed, after she covered "The Greatest Love of All", nothing changed, the musical climate, the 80s feel was still riding high. Then came, "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" in 87. I'm saying Mariah set the TREND in 1990/91, and she did. Absolutely nothing between 85 and 89, sound like VoL. Get over the fact that you can't slap Whitney into everything Mariah did.
Once again, you are confusing innovate with create. To innovate means to make changes in something already established. Mariah's style is the variant from the other women you listed. Rococo melisma is the variant.
Rococo melisma.....? LOL once again ELABORATE (aka rococo) melisma was there before Mariah Carey. She didn't "innovate" it because she didn't have to. She delivered elaborate melismas, but MANY singers delivered elaborate melismas before her.
Quote:
Originally posted by Praise Mariallah
I never said x, y, and z didn't hold long notes, I said Mariah set the trend in 1990/91 with notes belted even higher, which is undeniably true, seeing as not only does she hold the record for longest note ever recorded by a pop singer, but also HIGHEST note ever recorded. Are you actually going to argue range, RANGE, of all things with me?
Mariah holds the record for the longest note ever recorded by a pop singer? Really? So which song did she exceed the 25 seconds held by Minnie in Inside My Love? Or the 20 seconds done by Streisand in A Piece of Sky? Or Barbra's 26 seconds in On My Way to You?
I don't remember arguing about range. I specifically mentioned BELTING and how there were other women who had BELTED above the staff HIGHER than Mariah had belted. I didn't ever mention them exceeding Mariah's vocal range.
Quote:
Originally posted by Praise Mariallah
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that I Wanna Dance With Somebody overshadowed SAMLFY, even to this day it is much more celebrated and remembered, it was the biggest song of 87. Right now, I could list every Whitney single from the 80s. None of them sound like VoL or Emotions. Mariah made melismatic singing THEE affliction in pop music. You couldn't escape it, she made it necessary, if you were going to do a pop ballad it had to be a frenzy. I mean, there's a reason why critics call Vision of Love, the Magna Carta of melisma and not any of Whitney's 80s singles, or Aretha's singles, or Minnie's singles.
That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. IWDWS "much more celebrated" than GLOA? GLOA...the song that was the premier pop ballad of its time? The ballad which other ballads were compared to? The ballad that was referenced in films like Coming to America and American Psycho? The song that closed out her shows, the song that she sang in front of people like Mohammed Ali and for benefit shows, the song that was a staple in 80s singing talent competitions (and beyond).
The reason critics "cite" VOL as the song that started crazy melisma stuff was because of ONE post by The New Yorker. The rest took it and ran. They didn't actually go back and find sources from that time to support the statement. It's like how journalists claim Elvis was the first rock and roll singer, but he wasn't.
While it was actually happening, not ONE person, artist or journalist was looking at that song as the start of all of it. It certainly DID influence the way people sang (i.e. Beyonce, Christina etc.), but it is not and was not the start of "afflicted melismatic singing" or vocal acrobatics in pop music. There was no ONE song that started it. It's impossible to pin-point it to a song as MANY singers were doing it already.
Quote:
"Brother and sister BeBe & CeCe Winans were joined by several more sibling Winans, Mom and Dad Winans, and even prominently featured Whitney Winans. Actually, Houston was introduced by her real name but might as well have been family, sharing as she does their way of swooping and dipping all over a poor, defenseless syllable. Call it the Megalo-Melismatic school."- The Winans and Whitney Houston at the Wiltern, LA Times, May 22, 1989
The fact that you think this boils all down to specific songs is a HUGE weakness in your argument. What about concerts? Concerts and live shows were attended, reviewed, aired on TV, talked about etc.
Before anyone had heard of Mariah Carey, Whitney had been constantly cited for popularizing the increase in vocal gymnastics in music. And it wasn't pinpointed down to one song. It was a culmination of her singing in ANY medium: studio AND live.
Quote:
"Epic ballads such as If We Could Start Over and Have A Heart are powerful and heartrending, but the vocal gymnastics displayed here have already been popularized by Whitney Houston"- INSIDE THE SLEEVE POP Unison Celine Dion, The Globe and Mail: May 7, 1990
That's what Whitney (and Mariah) did. They popularized the increase of USE, not the "complexity". Especially not in popular music. Melisma has ALWAYS been complex (Ella, Aretha, Stevie, Sarah, Mahalia etc.), especially seeing as how many singers (specifically jazz and gospel singers) learned from virtuoso instrumentalists in the band.
Quote:
Originally posted by Praise Mariallah
IWhy is that such a bad thing to admit? Why is it that every time I say Mariah did this, you or someone else has to run in and say, well Whitney dipped in it first? This thread isn't even about Whitney. No. After Whitney covered "Saving All My Love For You" nothing changed, after she covered "The Greatest Love of All", nothing changed, the musical climate, the 80s feel was still riding high. Then came, "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" in 87. I'm saying Mariah set the TREND in 1990/91, and she did. Absolutely nothing between 85 and 89, sound like VoL. Get over the fact that you can't slap Whitney into everything Mariah did.
Music is CONSTANTLY changing. That's a terrible argument. The music of 1990 will not be exactly the same as the music of 1985. That doesn't change the fact that there will be similarities in terms of form and feel. Music of 2005 isn't like music of 2010. Music in 1995 isn't like music in 2000. So that's a dead point. You do realize saying "something sounds like another" doesn't necessarily "100% alike in melody or instrumentation". They mean there's a big similarity in musical form: how the song builds with the vocals, the feel of it etc. Hence why VOL was said to SOUND like Whitney, and other songs of hers were said to be reminiscent of Whitney.
Quote:
"Many of the numbers here (particularly There's Got To Be A Way and Alone In Love) are reminiscent of Whitney Houston (obviously a major influence)"- RECORDINGS OF NOTE POP MARIAH CAREY, The Globe and Mail: July 30, 1990
Now according to your logic, VOL couldn't have started the trend because IWALY, UMH and MHWGO don't "sound" anything like it. In fact, none of those songs "sound" alike, thus, I can say that there was no trend, right?
Nothing changed? Tell that to Stephanie Mills or Stacy Lattisaw, who was told by her label to record an entire album of Whitney reject songs. Tell that to Miki Howard, or the rest of the R&B and pop girls with vocals who were told to sing like Whitney. Tell that to the record execs who rushed out trying to find their own Whitney Houston or the "next" Whitney Houston. Wasn't MARIAH constantly compared to Whitney Houston for her vocal AND musical style? So your argument doesn't even hold any weight to it. If Mariah was constantly cited as being similar to someone before her who was already doing the big ballads with vocal gymnastics, how could she have been the start of the trend?
Quote:
"Mariah Carey'' introduces a pop-gospel voice that is impressive in its power and range and that has elaborate vocal embellishments strikingly reminiscent of Whitney Houston's"- Stephen Holden, New York Times: The Pop Life, June 13th, 1990
''Vision of Love,''…a pyrotechnical vocal that resembles the work of Whitney Houston"- EW, Ron Givens, Vision of Loveliness, August 3rd, 1990
Vision of Love set a standard to powerful vocals in a pop song Fantasy created the Hip Hop/Pop genre All I Want For Christmas Is You set a standard for all Christmas music Hero is a very popular ballad which is often performed in singing competitions We Belong Together is considered one of the greatest comeback songs EVER.
I never said x, y, and z didn't hold long notes, I said Mariah set the trend in 1990/91 with notes belted even higher, which is undeniably true, seeing as not only does she hold the record for longest note ever recorded by a pop singer, but also HIGHEST note ever recorded. Are you actually going to argue range, RANGE, of all things with me?
Let me just stop you right here my good sorority sis. You say "notes belted even higher"? Here's a few examples of songs with high belts prior to Mariah:
1. Aretha - Good To Me As I Am To You
2. Patti - If Only You Knew
3. Donna - Last Dance
4. Whitney - Saving All My Love For You
5. Stevie - All In Love Is Fair (G#4 - impressive for a countertenor)
6. Natalie - I'm Catching Hell
7. Stephanie - Comfort Of A Man
8. Teena - Casanova Brown
And this "notes higher". Here's a few:
1. Minnie - Lovin' You (pretty much popularized the whistle in pop music)
2. Denice - Free (Bb5, a half step below soprano C)
3. Betty - No Pain, No Gain
4. The Spinners - It's A Shame
5. Whitney - IWDWS (live, went up to a C6 I believe)
6. Teena - Dear Lover
7. Cheryl Lynn - Got To Be Real
8. Sylvester - You Make Me Feel
This list doesn't even include the widespread use of the male falsetto in the soul groups of the early 70s.
Now, I'm not taking anything away from Mariah, she's great in her own right. But you have to fact check your claims before you come to battle. You could say Mariah brought the whistle register to today's generations of music. Since her debut to now, she's been synonymous with the whistle register. Yeah Minnie did it first, but today's GP isn't as in tune with her as the kids who grew up in Minnie's time.
